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mdd1: People have been dying in vastly greater numbers for millenia (as we reckon time). And they die of a great many things, many of which could be avoided (e.g. if we banned cars, tens of thousands of lives would be saved). Closing down the economy and stripping millions of people of their parnassah and property was not an appropriate response to what is basically a cold (a.k.a. coronavirus) that acts like flu.
Also note the Republicans (or at least Trump) tried to close the border to Chinese travellers but the Democrats screamed loudly and said it was racist. Indeed, Trump is distinguished, much to the objections of the Republican business community, by his opposition to open borders.
The government is unlikely to support widespread testing since it would reveal a large number of people who have, or had, Covid19, but didn’t get sick. This would undermine the narrative that Covid19 is a very dangerous plague that justifies canceling the education of children, destroying small businesses and closing synagogues (and all religious institutions). When the emperor has no clothes, the last thing he wants is accurate data.
Many Americans are outraged by the ridiculous suppression of human rights under the pretext of public health. It is hardly limited to frum Jews. When you look at the figures of all infected (as reflected in antibody tests), one realizes that Covid 19 is a disease that rarely makes people sick, and in the rare cases where someone gets sick it is usually fatal only to those who were seriously ill to begin with.
What it does mean is the the frum community has finally realized that it is dumb to regard New York as a good place to live. We should avoid a state where persecution of religion is considered good public policy. If we wish to stay in America, it is time to start moving to the conservative states.
Data needs context. Measure the “normal” death rate. If instead of 2.8 million deaths, there are 3 millions deaths, that does NOT suggest a disaster that warrants the social and economic disruption. If instead of 2.8 million deaths, there are 28 million (what one expect from Smallpox or Plague, and probably ten times that), there is a need to panic.
Why? Because he is a politically correct Democrat, and the continued existence of frum Jews (along with most religions) is a serious offense against political correctness.
Outside of New York City, there isn’t a serious problem. The response of most Western European Jews to the Crusades was to move to adjacent Christian territories where they people were nicer. The response of most European Jews to the holocaust was to move to other countries where the people were friendlier. If you can’t stand the New York Democrats, move. Note that under American law, no visa is needed to move to another state.
You can be for masks (they do reduce the chance of catching the normal coronavirus, a.k.a. “cold”, even if they don’t reduce our change of dying or getting seriously ill) without believing that Covid19 is a serious threat to health (unless you are older than a boomer, or seriously ill to begin with).
Masks do go very well with neckties (both are decorative, allow expression, and serve no real function).
The government statistics are internally incoherent since they base them on people tested (a non-random population) rather than people infected (as revealed by random testing including antibody testing). The government lied from the beginning claiming that most persons infected by Covid would be become seriously ill and several percent would die, whereas in facts over 90% of those infected don’t get sick, and the death rate of those infected is in tenths of a percent and in fact represents only a tiny “blip” compared to the overall death rate (in part since Covid19 kills mostly old people or those already quite ill). In real epidemics, such as smallpox in a new population, death rates would be in the tens of percents, everyone would get sick, and children would be the most vulnerable – a “plague” that doesn’t cause illness for most people and kills only the elderly is not a social threat. The shutdowns and closures were and are a mistake, and we are right to suspect ulterior motives.
The government in “blue” states do not believe their own propaganda since they routinely allow their supporters to gather without masks or social distancing (note: these are the people they would least want to die), while at the same time striking a blow against religions whom they have for a long time regarded as mortal enemies. It should also be noted that the frum community is much less likely than the general population to be affected since we are radically younger, not to mention that the age group most at risk from Covid19 are those who are older than “boomers” (i.e. those born after World War II, which in our community is an age group that is still artificially reduced due to high mortality among Jewish children during the period preceding 1945). Some frum media have unwisely “bought” the false narrative put out by the hyper-secular liberal media.
And why do you see relatively few frum women protesting? In our community, large, noisy and potentially violent protests are not seen as a place for women. If you don’t realize that, you really don’t understand the sociology of the frum community.
But if we threw all the crooked politicians in jail, they would never have a quorum. And since most honest people refuse to have anything to do with government, we would have anarchy.
The best answer is to move. If B&H or the diamond district were to get up and move all their operations (other than storefronts) to a low tax, red state – it would speak more loudly than all the screeching heard here.
Maybe the frum businesses aren’t supposed to survive?
The Zionists are no better than the American secularists.
Civil disobedience might be an option. Americans have a long history of supporting peaceful resistance to government. It is for Daas Torah to decide whether to fight, and how.
Few living can remember when to be a Yid meant to live with limited rights, and under constant persecution and discrimination. This is actually normal and we should get used to it, and remember as our ancestors have for centuries, that this is only the fake world, and our attention must remain focused on the real world.
It doesn’t make any difference unless it is: Iran, Syria, Gaza (i.e. Hamas), West Bank (i.e. PLO) or the remnants of Al Queda and ISIS.
Having a peace treaty with a country with which you aren’t engaged in an active war is meaningless.
Peace means you can abolish conscription, cut taxes and demilitarize your political and economic systems.
Also, a peace treaty with an unpopular dictator is worthless since it only binds the dictator, not the country.
It depends on the local government. If you have a pro-Trump rally in New York, you can be certain the government will object. That the government lets its supporters rally, and cracks down on its opponents (and socialists believe that trying to crush religion is a policy to be supported), suggests that those in charge do not perceive there to be a serious public health threat from Covid19 (if they did, they would be very protective of their supporters, and demand that their enemies, which includes frum Yidden, get together mask free).
Whether it is a Hillul ha-Shem or a Kiddush ha-Shem is a political question. If you are “blue” you probably believe that the measures to stop Covid19 are matters of pikuach nefesh, and the government is acting reasonably to fulfill their duties under the public health laws. If you are “red” you probably feel that Covid19 is not a serious public health threat, except for people who due to age or infirmity should probably not be going out in public to begin with, and the the actions of people such as the New York City mayor are the acts of a bigoted tyrant using the pretext of public health to crack down on he considers to be his enemies. If you are “red”, then davening in shul without a mask is a courageous act of civil disobedience against an unjust government, and as such is a kiddush-ha-Shem (though like many acts of civil disobedience, perhaps a bit foolhardy).
In a city such as Baltimore, where the local Vaad ha-Rabbanim is issuing restrictions going far beyond those of the government (and observed by most but not all shuls), it could be argued that following regulations issued by the local Vaad (which is “our” government) is mandated by halacha even if those issuing the regulations are misguided and poorly advised in their secular knowledge (though no one would accuse them of having an ulterior motive).
One should note that in many circles, proper dress includes useless items such as a necktie, so it seems can go along with adding a useless mask, especially if it matches the useless necktie. One should note that while the utility of a mask to prevent Covid19 is debateable, there are reports from the southern hemisphere (whose winters occur during our summers) that mask wearing reduces flu and colds, and there is a possibility that masks will become part of standard fashion.
If you have a large family, and receive many entitlements (food stamps, medicare or medicaid or a CHIP program, housing assistance), unless you run a business, you are probably better off economically under the Democrats. If you aren’t a fanatic zionist, Biden is no worse than any other Democrats in terms of aiding Israel (though he won’t support “transfer”). While Biden supports or tolerates many very morally dubious policies, most Yidden have historically assumed the goyim are amoral and don’t see that as very shocking. More frum Jews (unlike our non-observant cousins) are fairly poor and benefit from the Democrats largesse (and taxing and spending are what Democrats do best).
Its covered by the Shevah mitsvos of the Bnei Noach (Seven mitsvos applicable to non-Jews).
The fact that abortion and infanticide have a long history of acceptability among goyim is irrelevant.The medinah as a Jewish state never existed. Indeed, the “dream” of a Jewish state has been a nightmare for most zionists since the beginning. The “crackdown” on shuls and yesvhivos is based on blatantly false public health claims, suggesting a rather obvious ulterior motive.
Note the zionists claim 1000 Israelis out of 8 million have died, but by their death rate statistics .5 percent (one in 200, or 40000) die annually so the 1000 “covid deaths” (many of whom would have died anyways) is a tiny drop in the bucket – hardly the basis for measures more appropriate for something such as a renewed smallpox or bubonic plague epidemic.
These are difficult times???? You probably missed out on history class in school (too busy learning – has ve’shalom I would suggest you weren’t paying attention).
The country panics over a virus that is little more than the annual flu, but compared to real influenza (e.g. 1918 version) or something like smallpox, is little worse than a cold. I much prefer Covid19 (which really isn’t a threat) to something like smallpox or bubonic plague.
So the government is a stickel anti-religious in a few big states. So move to a different state. There are plenty of “red” states. And if you think anti-semitism is a problem today, read about the last century (and the one before that, etc.) to see what anti-semitism really is.
Even with bigoted fools running the government, there is no need to get bent out of shape.
When I was that age, I found it annoying (I never smoked, and almost never drink except on Shabbos).
When I was a tatti, I found it outrageous that yeshivos put up with such things.
Now that I’m a Zeidy, I realize that kids will be kids, and that’s been true since the beginning. And they tend to outgrow it, and at least I had less trouble than Adam he-Rishon, whose kids really got into mischief.
The goyim are often weird. We’ll survive them. We always have, and we always will. And the nuttier the goyim, the more zechus we get for standing up to them.
Killing surplus babies is a “leftist” position? When the Nazis killed Jewish babies, we thought they were “right” wing. And both the left and right include anti-Semites (one can argue that Jewish survival is to make sure that neither extreme comes to power).
We should remember that “left” and “right” refer to which side of the parliament different groups sat on in the French parliament during the French Revolution – and that Jews didn’t get the right to vote or hold office in France until after the revolution.
We also need to remember that in basic economic matters, most frum Jews tend towards the “left”, and indeed, our community has a history of left-wing positions in many areas such as providing education for all and supporting the poor and regarding such support as a duty.
huju: A minority is by definition any group that is under 50% of the population (at least that is based on dictionaries). I believe the “woke” definition defines “minority” as belonging to a group that holds a politically correct position and is entitled to special privileges. The African Americans are a qualified minority, unless they are too religious or hold conservative economic and political positions. For more about the “woke” methodology and use of terminology, I suggest reading “1984” by George Orwell.
Given the Democrat’s open toleration for anti-Semitism, it will be increasingly hard for frum Jews to vote Democrat. Democrats come out for ideas such as banning Bris Milah, closing down non-public schools, and affirmative action programs designed in part to discriminate against us, and the list is long. The “old” Democrats would have kicked people like Al Sharpton, of DeBlasio, or the squad out of the party (at least in New York State, the Old Democrats had no problem working with southern racists).
Religious Jews.
WASPs (once the majority, a minority for at least the last century)
Working class whites
Non-atheists in general
Christians in particular (now a minority for the first time)
MalesMany accredited law schools offer part time programs (i.e. evening programs) that usually take an extra year or two to finish. They tend to be the least desirable law schools (so don’t plan to get a fancy job on Wall Street, more likely you’ll need to hang out a shingle). In general, except for the elite law schools, you should go to a local law school (one in the state or region you’ll seek to pracitice in). Pre-Covid19, any sort of correspondence or online law school was largely prohibited by the agencies that license lawyers.
Rightwriter: Civil War similar to the United States in the 1860s, Spain in the 1930s, Russia after 1918 or Britain in the mid-17th century —- VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE
Instead think of Northern Ireland in the late 20th century, Lebanon since the 1950s, Palestine prior to 1947 (going back to the 1920s).
The change in technology is independent of politics. Unless the government finds a way to ban the internet (North Korea could, the United States – not really), or at least to ban telework and distance education, the world is changed. Distance education means (once we get used to using it efficiently), that a family could live anywhere in the country (or world), and get a Torah education, and a good secular education, for their children. Many jobs can be done anywhere. If a dozen Jewish families move to a small town in a rural region, as long as they have good internet, the community is viable. Frum Jews only recently became hyper-urbanized, and we could go back to living in small communities.
There are winners and losers. Anyone owning real estate in a big city is a LOSER. So is someone whose business depends on having employers and employees being physically close (bad news for restaurants, bad news if you run an office cleaning service, etc.). Education institutions with a heavy investment in physical plant will be the biggest losers.
Given the growing anti-semitism is the “blue” urban centers, this could be the best news of Yidden since Britain turned down Germany’s peace offer in 1940 (which we didn’t know about at the time).
It would be very hard to have a civil war. For starters, the state militias are all Federally run, and include a handful of volunteers (most of whom are more likely to be red than blue); in 1861 the militias included most able-bodied free white males and were totally equipped and trained by states.
The economy is totally integrated. Without the “red” states, the bi-coastal regions would starve (you do really that almost all food eaten in Brooklyn is grown elsewhere); in 1861 most food was produced locally.
Also, most red states have large pockets of blue, and vice versa. In 1861, virtually no one in the north favored the south (a “dove” simply wanted to let them go), though many if not most southerners favored the union, a factor which crippled their war effort.
One might have to deal with domestic terrorism. For example, if the Democrats try to prohibit parents from giving a religious upbringing to their children (in the best interests of the child), it would probably lead to violence, but not a full war (think of Northern Ireland’s “troubles” or Lebanon as it normally is).
All central cities appear to be seriously losing population. Rents and home values are falling.
Once a type of work can be done as telework, there is no reason to live near the corporate headquarters. All that matters is that you have good enough internet to telework.
Once the schools get the “hang” of distance education, there is no need to base one’s residence on proximity to the “right” school.
None of these factors are unique to Yidden but involve society as a whole.
The Israeli equivalents of ANTIFA and BLM are the third largest group in the Kenesset (after the Nationalists and the Hareidim). Unlike the US where anti-semitism is a small part of the left-wing agenda, opposition to the continue existence of Yiddishkeit is a primary goal of the secular fanatics. Hatred of frumkeit is so great that you see Israel nationalists willing to give up territory, if only to get a government that will actively persecute us. Otherwise left wing socialists could have formed at “dove” majority, with support for a left-wing economic agenda, but gave it up to concentrate on fighting the chareidim (who tend to be “doves” and also tend to favor left wing economic policies such as aid to poor families).
Going to Israel for fear of bigotry is jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If New York gets too hot for us, we should consider moving to “red” states which tend to be more supportive of religion in general.
It appears that texting is causing the ability of people to write (and read, and use) grammar is weakening. This is especially a problem for us since our culture is highly based on written materials. If children don’t develop the competence to use written language, it cuts them off from many aspects of Yiddishkeit. It is also problem that many people tend to spend all day staring at a device, which again clashes with our cultural values which involve more than looking at a smartphone. However these are problems for adults as well as children, but children normally copy their parents (even if parents don’t admit it).
If the Israelis come up with a peace plan that the Palestinian people support in a free election, the conflict with Hamas will disappear. To the extent zionism requires the domination of the Palestinians, the zionists might have a problem.
BLM (and also “Antifa”) is basically a racist organization, similar to the mid-20th century National Socialists in Germany (a.k.a. Nazis), and will never be satisfied and can never be accommodated, though they might be discredited and certainly can be crushed. Their goals, poorly defined as they are, are to re-write modern history and produce a different result, and anyone who stands in their way needs to be cancelled.
If the Democrats are in control, while they will be anti-business (mindless regulations, “green” policies, higher taxes, treating corporations as cash cows to be milked), they will liberally print money which will replace most of the damage (even if it results in inflation). The biggest threat to frum Jews will be from the fanatic secularists know running the Democratic party, though outside of New York City, they target Christians rather than Jews.
If the Republicans are in control, they will be supporting policies that promote economic growth and prosperity (though it will go badly for the Democrats who like to be apocalyptic alarmists).
If there is a split government, a bit of both. If one party believes the election was stolen, that could be a problem.
“State” of the MO community.
Given that they are already more diverse geographically than the hareidim, they should have no trouble migrating out of the fanatic (and increasingly hostile) blue states. The improvements in distance education and teleworking due to Covid19 will also help.
It helped Trump with several groups, including Evangelicals. It also reassured Israel that the US won’t demand a withdrawal to the 1947 partition boundaries (under which Jerusalem wouldn’t be part of Israel). In addition to Christians, much of Trump’s base sees the Palestinians as supporters of Islamic terrorism and the embassy move was a slap in the Palestinians’ face. As most Jews live in solid blue states, Jewish influence on American politics is minimal, so the decision to move the embassy wasn’t motivated by a desire to get Jewish votes.
Given that he didn’t disown his daughter for converting, I would say he is definitely a friend. Most Democrats believe in “freedom from religion” as a public policy goal.
Mail voting would work if:
1. The Boards of Elections and the Post Office were fanatic about keeping address records up to date.
2. Ballots were sent to voters as certified mail, signature required – guaranteeing voters received their ballots
3. They actually checked that the ballot was from the voter either by requiring them to show ID at the post office or by checking a signature on the ballot against the voter registry, which very few election boards do.
4. A ban on vote harvestingBut it won’t happen and unless Biden wins by a tremendous landslide, the election will be tainted
What’s wrong with dead people voting as long as they know to vote Democrat? It is a long tradition going back many generations.
And why would a mail carrier in a Republican area throw our perfectly good ballots when they have the option of delivering them to a Democratic vote harvester who least knows the correct way to mark the ballot.
1. Kamala Harris is a politician, as is everyone running for national office except for Trump (it is clear what he is, but he is not a politician). She knows how to adjust her views for an audience, and to minimize insulting anyone.
Based on her previous career, she is a full fledged member of the bi-coastal elites, moderate to conservative on criminal justice issues, and in many ways a 100% normal Democrat.2. Kamala Harris is distinct in that both her parents were immigrants (a West Indian, presumably descended from British slaves as are most West Indians, and an immigrant descended from an upper class caste in India). This election is the first in which none of the candidates for either national offices are descendants of those who were in America at the time of Revolution (all recent immigrants – Trump and Harris from 20th century immigrants, Pence and Biden from mid-19th century immigrants, and not a Anglo-Saxon among them).
Trump did try to ban immigration but the Democrats objected –
It turns out most infected people don’t get sick-if they admitted that in January there would have been no closures, Worldwide, more people are dying for the panic and overreaction than from the disease. Now that we know that only 1 in 20 infected people get sick, and perhaps 1 in 200 die, this will seem in retrospect like a false alarm – and Trump will seem clever for not totally falling for it
If you are a Democrat, as a point of faith, you must believe that Trump is the devil/satan/source of all evil.
Quayboardwarrior: In the late 20th century they made phone service an entitlement (meaning that the welfare program would pay for basic phone service for welfare recipients). It wouldn’t cost that much to provide a similar level of internet, especially if it included very limited graphics (perhaps on the line of glorified texting, with someway to authenticate what you were receiving). At that point, the Post Office could drop first class mail, perhaps continuing parcel service and priority mail (especially with signature required) with higher fees,
Quayboardwarrior: Postal service originally was limited to official mail, and did not include home delivery (that was added during the Civil War so women whose husbands were off fighting wouldn’t have to go to the post office, which often was run by the local inn, which often doubled as a “Beis Zenus”). Rural free delivery and parcel post were also late add-ons.
If you made internet access a entitlement (as was telephone service by the late 20th century), you could probably get rid of paper mail service.
The major impact will be on businesses that need to ship (which include many frum companies), since that will encourage the “competition” to raise rates. It also will hurt those who do not routinely use email , and especially those who lack broadband (which includes any frum families).
October surprises to save the Republicans:
A major foreign policy “coup”, such as Russia, China, Iran and or North Korea having revolutions and pro-western leader coming to power. Russia withdrawing from Ukraine, or China granting independence to Taiwan and/or Hong Kong would be just as good.
The Democrats and left-wing media admit that Covid19 was never a serious threat, and the lockdowns were never justified. The Democrats would never admit the sun rises in the east, if that clashed with their view of political correctness.
A peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, that is endorsed by the Arab League, all of whose members promptly recognize Israel. The Palestinians are unlikely to give up their claims, so this is unlikely.
Trump dying of something other than Covid19 (assassination would help the Republicans the most), such that Pence is the nominee for president, and Trump’s “deplorables” support him as their man’s chosen successor.
No more than you can blame Jews for bringing nuclear weapons into the world (and we had help). There are roughly a billion Chinese, and only a handful of bureaucrats are responsible (whether by negligence/incompetence or malice, is a different matter). From what we know how the Chinese government works, there are probably a lot more Chinese who died of Covid19 than they are announcing.
Beis Din doesn’t get a case unless someone brings the case. American courts get criminal cases when the public prosecutor (in New York, the District Attorney, of the United States Attorney) presents charges. A traditional Beis Din (when they had full criminal authority) requires witnesses to present charges. If the witnesses don’t want to present the charge, the Beis Din doesn’t hear the case. So if the witnesses don’t want to kill the criminal, the case will not be initiated. Therefore the situation in the question will never arise.
Why would the witnesses have brought the case to begin with?
In Anglo-American law the State (Crown, whatever – in the US, the local public prosecutor) brings the case and summons witnesses (sometimes against their will), and coerces them to testify in many cases.
The word “witness” in English implies a bystander with information based on what they saw. The Hebrew word עֵד should probably be translated more as “accuser” as the role of the עֵד is similar to that of a grand jury or public prosecutor in that the עֵד initiates the criminal proceeding.
Also note the Jewish courts can receive and use information from persons who do not have the status of עֵד whereas an Anglo-American court can not based in decision on the facts from someone who isn’t a “witness”.
So if two Jews give warning and witness the murder of someone, for a non-controversial example, a Nazi war criminal, and then decide that the murderer was justified in killing the Nazi, there is no requirement for them to go to Beis Din a initiate a criminal proceeding – though under American law the witnesses would be accessories if they didn’t report the murder of the Nazi, though the Prosecutor could dismiss the case “in the interests of justice” (at least under Anglo-American law, some Roman-law based systems require the prosecutor to proceed on all complaints).
Reb Eliezer: Isn’t it sad when our rabbanim are tricked by goysha scientists into doing something totally dumb. Cholera isn’t spread by breathing. The correct advice doesn’t require a mask, but does require boiling water. In the examples of telling people not to fast, that would actually be the wrong thing to do for an uninfected person. If you don’t have cholera, fasting actually makes you safer (since it was the food and drink that made people sick).
So when the goyim (and frei Jews) today announce that according to their science, we must close our shuls and yeshivos (but not their “politically correct” gatherings), we should be highly skeptical, and suggest they take a long walk off a short pier.
Adan Neira: Moshe Rabeinu was dealing with systematic, highly focused, biological (and geo-physical) warfare raged by Ha-Shem against the Egyptians. In modern terms, it was analogous to being the hostage, and following instructions from the special forces being sent to rescue you.
You can be reasonably certain they didn’t call on people to stop going to shul and to stop learning Torah.
One should also note that unlike Covid19, Spanish flu killed people of all ages, and most people infected became quite sick. Spanish flu wasn’t reported in Anglo-American media, at first, since it was considered actionable intelligence of the health of the armies – it became public knowledge when it was reported in the Spanish press, since Spain was neutral and therefore had no military censorship. It them became well known everywhere. In the USA, many people wore masks and many things were cancelled, but no one attempted to shut down the economy.
The infamous cholera epidemic cited above shows the problem with rabbinim paying too much attention to doctors. In turned out the disease was not an airborne virus, but was spread by polluted drinking water. Any quarantine measures were not warranted, and fasting would actually reduce your chance of exposure. The remedy was to acquire clean water for drinking, washing and preparing food (e.g. boil the water before use). It turns out the doctors the rabbis consulted with were into what we now call “junk science”.