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YeshivaBochur:My wife was tired of being set up with bochurim that expected her to support and wanted an established man. My father did not let me date until I graduated college, had a job and was able to support a family. I granulated college when I was 23, also started working in my last semester and met my wife right after. She did not want to wait for “mediocrity” and she got me:):)
mommamia22: Career minded is not the problem. It’s the expectation that the wife needs to support. Some of these girls grew up in learning home and want more for their kids in terms of finances. They want to dress nice and not wear handme downs.
yitayningwut: You still need to include a percentage of girls that do marry boys who are 18. I think we had this calculation topic before. Let’s not get into it again. But according to your numbers, do you suggest boys dating earlier when they are not ready?
“Also, some people wrote that Kollelim is a new invention. This is not true. The understanding of the value of Torah study was always there, just the financial resources were not available in Europe. “
MDD: No one is disagreeing about the Torah VALUE. But as the other poster wrote, the idea of a Kollel is a fairly new invention. The first kollel was the Kovno Kollel that started in 1877. However, this kollel was not like we have today. The Kovno Kollel required each student to separate from their family all week except on Shabbos and there was a FOUR YEAR LIMIT that a student can be in the Kollel. R’ Aron Kotler and R’ Shach modified the philosphy of the Kovno Kollel to its current state.
So the poster is correct, until R’ Kotel & R’ Shack Ztl, there was no such thing as a full time kollel where you spent time with your family. You actually learned Yomom V’Layla without interruption. But even then, there was a time limit.
Finally, being Motzi Shem Rah on another person is worse then being what you called him. He could change and be a ben torah, if he was an apikores, however, the fact that the Motzi Shem Rah will now live forever in cyberspace will be an everlasting avayrah. Please be careful with what you post.
Minyan gal: this is why secretaries are important:)
It’s not to teach goyim the torah. It is to show them what a Torah Jew is like by making a kiddish hashem. When you receive wrong change from a non jews, and return it, that is Ohr Lagoyim. When goyim see you honest in business, kivad Av Vam , standing for older people are all Ohr Lagoyim.
Is your issue with the Yankees logo or also the Trains with Aleph bais?
BTW, you can also purchase a taalis koten with Elmo or Thomas the Train. Do you condone that?
Personally, if the child is 3 or 4 years old I see nothing wrong with it since the logos entice him to want to wear a yarmulka or tztits.
Stamper: Actually, Food Stamp Admin. does look at some of your assets. They look at your bank accounts, income, savings, 401k. They do not look at you home or cars.
When I was unemployed, I tried getting Food Stamps because on the Income Level I was eligible. However, since I had a 401K I was denied. I was told I must take out that money before I can receive Food Stamps.
But the plan was, if we did receive Food Stamps, we’d go someone where no-one recognizes us to purchase food because of the busha.
Simple. She wears a wig. The sefer condemns women wearing wigs and advocates that women cover their hair with a techil or the sort. However, she feels she cannot give up her wig.
The moral if story is YOU need to spend more time blogging and texting in order to understand people:)
Stamper: What is farcical is your statement without any sources. You may disagree with me, but everything I have said is documented and backed up. Can you please name ONE chardai Rabbi that was influenced by philosophers or poets? In his memoirs of Germany, Hermann Schwab (1955) describes how RSRH and the yeshiva attended Friedrich Schiller’s 100th birthday celebration where RSRH delivered a speech quoting Schiller’s poems. Can you please show me ONE, just ONE, charadi Rabbi that would EVER do such a thing?
So before calling facts farcical, please read a little more.
LMA: it is funny how you consider RSRH as part of the Charidi circles, when he was the FIRST orthodox Rov to preach in German, not the typical yidish. Even in Amercia, until the 1940’s, all drashas were in Yiddish. Speaking Torah in any other language was considered treif! How can you even say RSRH was a chardei?? The Volozhin Yeshiva closed in 1892 because it refused to integrate secular studies. RSRH REQUESTED the German Government to be able to teach secular studies in Yeshiva.
I agree that TODAY’S Yekesh communities are part of the Charadi world, but RSRH was a probably the first MO Rabbi! As stated, please explain the Hirschian Schools. They were NOT Charadi at all. What you are doing is comparing is Yekesh community of today and charadi of today and morphing in the past. They are distinct. RSRH provided the foundation of MO, but as stated before, R’ Soloveitchik disagreed with the synthesis of the Torah and science and thus he was the champion of MO.
Gavra_at_work: I agree. I think this whole hergesh/dvakus point is shtuss and nonsense. Move on to something substantial!
Stamper: MO is not apikoris or condone hersey. I do not know what R’ Shwab was talking about. However, either case, RSRH started Neo-Orthodoxy as R’Soloveitchik started MO. The current Ada Yeshruin is NOTHING like RSRH created. Please read up on the old Hilda Birn Schools (i think that what it was called) that RSRH started. Look at their derech and then tell me it is not similar (and as I stated, they are different)but call them cousins.
Lomed Mkol Adam: What you are describing is Litvaks in general. Cold and calculated Judaism, not MO. The whole chasidic movement started based upon “Ivdu Es Hashem B’Simcha”! Litvaks are known to be cold when it comes to yiddishkeit and a lot of Jews went off the derech because of it. The BaAl Shem Tov taught the Jews that one does not need to be a Talmud Chochim, but he should be “emotionally” happy, fileed with joy, when doing Mitzvas.
Since R’Soloveitchik is inherently a Brisk and learned the brisker derech, I can guess this “Hergesh/Dveykus/feelings/emotions” comes from Litvaks. However, this thread should be Chassidim versus Litvaks, not Orthodox versus MO!
Yes, there is a difference between RSRH and his Neo-Orthodoxy and Rabbi Soloveitchik and his Modern Orthodoxy. However, either case they are both more similar to each other than to Ultra Orthodoxy.
Lomed Mkol Adam: Are you serious when you say “he MO philosophy disregards Hergesh/feelings altogether. “?? Are you saying Rabbi Shamson Rafuel Hirsch had no Hergesh or rabbi soloveitchik had no emotions??
Seriously, where do you come up with this?
Is there a difference between dead people and “real” dead people?:) Plus, who are “they” that say roiv are goyim? Is tumah botel b’roiv?
To All:
MW13: “Call me an extremist, but somehow I think Hashem will also help those who give up helping themselves for learning Hashem’s Torah. “
According to that logic, one really does not need to give Tzedaka or feel bad for Kollel people because as you pointed out “Hashem will help them”. Unless I am g-d, the achroyos is not mine. Sure, it’s nice, etc, but now I can sleep at night knowing that the responsibility of paying rabbayim is not mine.
If someone hurts my child, I would:
1) Kill the person myself.
2) Then call the police.
3) Call my Rov to arrange kosher meals for the short amount of time I’ll be in prison.
Read Josephus to get a first hand glimpse of what occurred prior, during and after the churban. The historical facts are true, but you have to take how “nice” the romans were with a grain of salt.
I respect MO/YU who show us how to be a frum Jew and still be a professional.
cookies: The same issue applies when your aunt or cousins sleep over. If you have other men in the house, not much of a problem.
yitayningwut: What I have seen is that tolerance is often preached but never implemented. When you have people on YWN talk about MO versus Charadim, this in itself is showing intolerance by thinking your derech is better. Last time I checked, it was supposed to be “Alu Valu divrai Alokim Chaim”. Does it matter if one is MO or not? Or Charadim or not?
Why would one care if someone wears a Kippah Surgah versus velvet.
What one can gather from posts and topics of YWN is the intolerance the Yeshiva/Charadia world has towards other frum jews who do not fit into their mold.
yitayningwut: The first time I experienced antisemitism was going to a “Yeshivisha” yeshiva. i was judged because my father was not on welfare and learning. I was judged and ridiculed because my family was haimesh and not yeshivish. This was the first time I understood why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed and what sinas chenam means. All I can say was B’h, the gehenom I experienced being in yeshiva is over and honestly cannot understand why charadim think they are greater than thou!
Can we close this silly thread already?? Its a bunch of assumptions which is based on people’s opinions with no hard facts.
If both of you are serious about getting married, you would realize that this is a silly topic. You both should insist on going to each other!!! If you start the relationship off this way, it won;t work out!
Well, my rav told me I can go to a trief restaurant as long as I do not eat anything and it is NOT maaras Ayin. He said people today assume that you are part of a business group and thus are there.
Middlepath: Glad I can help:)
Middlepath: If you don’t deserve her, maybe I do. Feel free to send me her name and info.
MORZET: Though sanhedrin cannot use Capital Punishment in a case like this, they can kill him via indirect means like starving him to death. This is a famous question if we had Sanhedrin these days and you have video cameras, and DNA proof the man killed someone, the suspect can not receive Arba Mesas since there was no warning. However, Bais Din can kill him via other means, as mentioned above.
AZ: I was trying to be Dan Lkaf Zechus. Since none of the boys were in college, does this mean working boys or girls have no shidduchim issues? Does this only apply the the learning boys?
Plus, your comparing apples to oranges. As you clearly missed, I specifically stated a person needs to do his hishtadlus. But, as you mentioned, if Hashem wants you to die at 18, or 25, Hatzalah won’t be able to help you. The reason why we have Hatzalah is because someone in medical distress can not help themselves with their hishtalus, so they call hatzalah. However, if someone is dating they are doing their hishtadlus. You should be asking, a boy sitting in yeshiva without any interest in dating, should you create an Organization to help him?
I once asked my Rebbe when the lotto was at 300 Million dollars. Should I buy 1 ticket or 100 tickets? The response was 1, since anymore might show a lack of bitachon. if hashem wants you to win, your 1 ticket will win. So when it comes to health, we call hatzalah and doctors because we do not know how to heal ourselves. Our Hishtadlus is calling the doctor. But by dating, going on dates is the hishdatlus and creating organizations or taknah might show a lack of bitachon.
MO bus. I take the Monsey and unfortunately some people feel showering is beged isha and emit a foul odor. In addition, there is also a lack of courtesy when it comes to speaking on the cell phone where the Yeshivia and Chassdish people feel it is their right. Hopefully, MO do not share those beliefs and I’ll be able to eat my M&M:)
Pac-Man: Ok, if Hashem wants them to get married at 18, shouldn’t they be married at 18? The Gemara says 40 days before the vlad is born a bas kol goes out and says Polni ben Polnis will marry Polnus bas Polnis and the shidduch is born. All that needs to happen is these two people need to date and get married. So if hashem wants them to get married at 18, they will need to meet when they are 18. If hashem wants him to be 23 and she should be 18, that is when they will meet. If he needs to be 35 and she 30, that is when they will get married.
In other words, there is really no shidduch crises. People are getting married when Hashem WANTS them to get married. Unless you feel today’s generation are all not marrying their zivug and that is why 23 year old boys gate 18 year old girls.
DaasYochid: If hashem wants the person to marry at 35, can you do anything to change that? Can the individual or society change it? True, if the person is locked in a box there is a lack of hishtadlus. However, if the person is dating, it should not matter what you, as a society does. If Hashem wants them to marry at 18 or 48, that is when they will get married. How is changing the age gap will help? If hashem wants an 18 year old girl to marry a 23 year old boy, or 19 marrying a 35 year old, that is what is going to happen. Changing the age gap should have no affect on the age of the person you will marry.
AZ: You could also argue that the 400 boys graduated college in January or June (Winter & Summer months), and thus feel obligated to only start dating when they can AFFORD to be married. I think it is a very smart move that removes the burden of financial support from parents and tzedakah organizations.
I was wondering…..doesn’t g-d control who you marry and when you marry? As long as you do your hishtadlus there is no crises. So why are we finding causes and suggesting solutions when it is all part of g-ds plan.
I have Paul Fredrick and they are great!! Follow the directions and it comes out great!!
chayav inish livisumay: You can NOT send a non iron to the cleaners. If you do you will ruin the shirts and void any warranty.
AZ: It does seem the point is lost on you so we will not rehash. However, the example we used, for simplification was 105 births of boys per YEAR. SO yes, basic math dictates every year there are 105 births multiply that by the amount of years provides the answer.
What does amaze me that if there are more boys than girls at age 18. No matter how many years pass by the result is the same. There will always be more boys than girls society.
As you mentioned, someone else would need to explain that you can not have 1890 boys marry 1000 girls an still have an issue where there are not enough boys.
AZ- True, we won’t argue the math, but 1) looked up Avi Chai and could not find any article on genders in schools. 2) 105×18= 1890, not 1,050.
Also, your assumptions are incorrect. You are assuming that 18 year old boys do not get married unless they are chasidish. This is a false premise since I know numerous 18 & 19 year old boys who married. Plus, you fail to see the end result if ALL the girls get married at age 20 and below there is still a surplus of boys. You can not argue that boys only marry 18 year old girls because there is a limited amount of 18 year old girls.
Plus you state “Due to population growth the number of 22/23 year old boys farout number the number of 18/19 year old girls.”
This is true and that is what I have been saying. Now you have 22/23 year old boys dating 18-23 year old girls. Population wise, there are more boys in that age group than girls, hence, there is no shidduch crises.
The only thing that will create a crises is when a 22 year old boy wants ONLY an 18 year. And when he turns 23, he still ONLY wants 18. And when he turns 35, he still only wants 18. This is again my premise that we are stuck on foolish ideals. If “nornal” boys date girls their age and below there is NO shidduch crises. As stated before, it is a MAN made issue that will NOT change until the future mother in laws are willing to accept boys and girls who are NOT 18, rich, etc. which are all MAN made.
Daas: the census does take into account population growth, hence you can see the increase from various years. Did you look at the census article? Click on the right side link for population growth.
In addition, there was a study done by the US dept of LAbor that seems to indicate that there is a 51% chance in the US for boys being born. See the Chance Magazine article “Does Having Boys or Girls Run in the Family?” By Joseph Lee Rodgers and Debby Doughty
Why do you think frum people are not affected by the same statistical outcomes as the rest of the world?
AZ: Please provide the article that took a census of ALL yeshiva’s and Day schools and breaks it down by gender. It would be interesting to read. In addition, Global is 107 per 100 while in the US it is 105 per 100 (close to your 104). Either way, there are more boys than girls. Not to over simplify, but lets start from year 1. There are 105 boys born for 100 girls. AT year 18 there are 1,890 boys vs 1000 girls. Argument sake, 10% of the girls marry. That leaves 900 Girls versus 1,790 boys left. Year 19: There is now 1900 (another 1000 girls reach marriageable age after 18 years) girls and 3680 boys. Remember, if girls start dating by 18 so if 10% of girls marry, that means only 100 boys marry those girls. Now lets say 20% got married. That will leave 1520 girls unmarried and while we now have 3300 boys unmarried. As you can see, as the years go on, based on whatever statistics you want to use (104 , 105, or 107) there will ALWAYS be more guys than girls. Of course this does include people going off the derech or dying. The fact a girl starts younger actually helps the girls get married younger. In addition, for argument sake, lets say 100% of all the girls from year 20 to 18 get married, that would mean 2520 girls marrying out of the 5190 boys (remember, each year increases boys over 18 by 1890 boys). That means ALL the girls from years 18, 19, & 20 are now married, there will still be a surplus of 2670 boys who are unmarried. if anything, the shidduch crises is on the boys, not girls.
Gavra: Neither does “most” of the world.
Mod 80:
True, one can not determine the amount in the frum community, but is the frum community any different from the rest of the world? How are our birth rate different or special from no frum or non Jews?
In addition, the world census provides the FACT of how there are more boys than girls in the world. Using that assumption, one can additional assume there are also more boys and girls in the frum world since frum people do not grow horns on their head and most of us fall into a normal range. As far as the explanation in Biology, the Gemorah in Niddah 31A, deals with this a little and there are numerous studies that indicate how halacha favors boys. Again, hamyvin yovin.
Pizzaman:
it might sound like sci-fi, but it is all backed by studies and research. You can argue with me, but how are you going to argue against the world census? You can argue with me about the numbers in the frum world, but you can not argue against a known science called Biology that dictates the premise of my argument. I would go more into detail, but this is not a Biology course. But feel free to ask your local orthodox doctor or internet provider on how halacha promotes the propagation of the male species.
Daas:
An 18 year old girl would marry a boy is 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 or even older.
A boy would marry any one his age and younger. For example, a 22 year old boy would marry an 18, 19, 20, 21, and maybe a 22 year old girl. Hence, girls have more options of marrying eligible boys than boys marrying eligible girls since girls marry their age and up while boys will marry their age and younger.
In addition, the census is just proof against this misconception that there are more girls than boys in the world; which is totally false based on a census.
Fortunately, a fact does not need additional validity from YWN forum since it is a fact in the nature of biology that increases the chances of having a boy.
Furthermore, there is no statistics or documentation that can help you determine the sizes of Bais Yaakov or yeshivas since that data was never compiled. You can not look at Mir yeshiva in NY or a Lakewood yeshiva enrollment without also compiling the data from Bais Yaakov’s in Cincinnati.
I stand by my statements that 1) There are enough of the male and female genders for everyone. 2) People need to expand their dating circles beyond their 4 amos.
Ofcourse: you just proved my point where everyone else thinks the issue is with the other side. As noted in other posts by others, they say there is a shortage of LEARNING boys, while you are saying there is a shortage of working boys:)
The point is, expand your horizon outside your 4 amos and you will surely find people to date. So he does not live in Boro Park or Flatbush?! It is not the end of the world! (it might be for the mother in law:) There are tons of eligible bachelors and bachelorettes in LA, Texas, Florida, Israel, Belgium, London, etc.
Daas Yochid:
1) I said ONE of the reasons, not THE reason.
2) Age discrepancies should not make much of a difference. An 18 year old girl would date a man 18-23. As she gets older, so does her age requirements.
3) The census includes population growth. In addition, boys are more common in the frum world. And this is a scientific fact, not opinion.
Back to the old riddle: When was the first time the jews kept shabbos? I would say NEVER!!! yes, there are Jews that keep Shabbos, but there has never been a case where ALL the Jews kept shabbos based on a medrish (which I do not know where but remember learning) that if all the Jews kept shabbos Moshiach would come. Hence the famous song, just one shabbos and we will all be free! The fact that moshiach did not come yet shows that the Jews did not properly keep shabbos.
Out of curiosity– during the times of Mitzrayim or even in the times of the first Bais Hamikdash (during Shlomo Hamleches reign), did the Jews pray for Moshiach?
According to the CRC, Bailey Irish Cream is NOT recommended with out an hashgacha.
Who cares if it Chukat Hagoyim or not??!!! Are you off from work and kids are still in yeshiva? Great, then celebrate!!!!:):)
I think it’s funny that every frum think the “other” side has a harder time finding a shidduch. In YWN, it’s the working boys and in the other sites (can’t name them since it might be deleted) it’s the learning boys.
I, as a working boy, had a list of 10 girls on it each week. There was no shortage of dates and I never went without two dates a week. While my best friend, who is a learning boy, had a harder time. B’h we are both now married.
The point is….I think the shidduch crises is a man made crisis created by people who don’t have dates. In reality, there are 107 boys born for every girl (yes, worldwide, not jews alone). In addition, currently, there are also more than 100 MILLION men than women, as reported in the UN Census (http://www.geohive.com/earth/pop_gender.aspx). It’s sad though that Israel does have more women, which can be attributed to deaths from war.
One of the reasons why we have a “man made shidduch crises” is the refusal of both parties to travel to each other. For example, my learning friend refused to travel to Monsey for a date because it was a shlep. He would rather not date then to travel an hour for the girl. Funny thing is, he married a Monsey girl. Or a girl from Baltimore won’t travel for a guy standing on the principle the man should come to her. We stand on too many foolish principles!! The only time both parties are willing to travel is when they start getting older and more desperate.
SO in essence, there are more than enough guys who sit and learn for learning boys and enough guys for girls who want working boys.
Wait until the kids come then you really can’t afford it. Tuition is a natural birth control:)