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“But level with us Oomis.. when Sac said the NYC-3 train, did you think the MTA or the lux rail car?
I for one was totally blindsided. Totally. “
I have NO idea what this is. I don’t travel by train anymore, for many years (both due to lack of necessity to do so, and now also because I cannot easily go up and down the stairs, or stand for long periods of time). Was the date on a regular subway or a luxury train? If a luxury train, he still should have gotten something for her to eat, and he DEFINITELY should have seen her to her home.
Logically, either you trust their kashrus or not . If you trust it enough to EAT in their home, then logically it follows, you ought to trust it enough for them to BRING the same food into your home. End of discussion.
Too many things here bother me. He MIGHT be poor (not something to hold aghainst him), might be afraid to drive (that would bother me), might be a cheapskate (NO one really LOVES to ride subway trains, and especially not with a girl late at night, when he is on a date). I wouldn’t feel comfortable with this. And I have gone out in my past on subway dates.
The water bottle, however, is another story altogether. He must be for the birds, because that was cheep, cheep, cheep.
“Elephants are the only mammals that can’t jump”
B”H for that, if true. Popa, I also heard that they cannot jump, due to the nature of their legs and bone structure.
I have decided by now that the real basis of this thread is the following. People look to justify their bad middos, whether it be cheapness, thoughtlessness, lack of consideration, insensitivity to others or rudeness. The more they are made aware their trait is not an attractive one, the more they dig int heir heels, attempting to excuse it away.
You can’t excuse it, justify it, or talk us into being ok with it. Admit to yourself that you are being a little overly-thrifty (how is THAT for a non-pejorative expression), when perhaps it is not warranted, and work on yourself. Otherwise admit that you are that way but LIKE yourself being overly-thrift. it’s not a crime, but “It’s no great honor, either!” (Tevye the Milkman).
Ditto. Absolute deal-breaker. No ifs, ands, or (cigarette) butts.
does she want to live a life of mesiras nefesh without the zechus of her husband learning? “
Bjjkid, you write that as if it a given. Her husband earns zechus for SUPPORTING his wife and family, and if either of them give tzedaka to modsos of learning, they get ALL the sachar of the boys who do learn there (Yissacher/Zevulun, remember?).
Have you recently graduated from high school (or are presently a student)? I don’t mean that as a dig at you, so please do not read it that way. I just see certain sentiments being expressed that sound very “kollel wife hashkafa”-ish, as might be impressed upon a Beis Yaakov girl.
bored out of my mind? why is a date in a lounge boring? all i want to do is talk to the bochur and figure him out”
You want to “figure him out” on a date????? You cannot figure anyone out on a first date, and it is not the purpose of a date to do that. What are you – his date or his shrink? Use your dates to simply get to know someone. After that MAYBE you will figure him out, if you feel you must. Do you want him to spend the date trying to figure YOU out? (Guys, your job is much harder, I grant you that).
I am with BP Totty, though I think $100 is a tad excessive for a first date. Dinner in a ice place can be half that.
Minding your own business, means whre it is SHAYACH to do so (not your beeswax what someone earns, or who comes to visit their home, or where they go on vacation. But if you see a potential for a Yid to be in a tzorah, you should NOT MYOB. Lo ta-amod al dam reyacha.
Boruch sheh-Chalak m’Chochmoso l’Yerei-av.
MDP – EZ Pass was invented by a YId????????
Mayne they should have called it Ezzie Pass.
isn’t dating for the purpose of finding your bashert and getting married?? how would such a thing bring u closer to the ultimate goal? “
yes, you are right about that. But sometimes two people feel a little uncomfrotable with each other alone, at first, but in a group situation (and it can be a VERY small group), their shybness is less pronounced and they develop a comfort zone.
Clearly this is not a typical dating mode for yeshivish people, but some of my most memorable dates were doubles with our close friends. Going mini golfing, for example, is more fun with another couple, or even going out for dessert or coffee.
Bald – follicly challenged
awful housekeeper – balabustically challenged
Popa, that’s why Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. It is also why I say “she-Asani kirtzno” with such kavana. Men generally look at relationships so differently from women. It’s why there is such poor communication between the genders. When a guy asks a woman what’s wrong, she will usually say NOTHING, but expect him to figure it out like a mind reader. And when she says NOTHING, you can bet it’s SOMETHING. When a guy says the same thing, he usually means “nothing.”
BTW, in an ideally happy marriage, husband and wife should NEVER stop dating (each other of course). They should always have a date night no matter what, even if it is only to take a walk together for an hour.
Aries, I don’t disagree. However the question was when should it be done and several people responded with what they believe the halacha allowed. I personally cannot understand how people who have been burned by divorce would WANT to get back on the horse so soon. However – it is not up to me. we also have no idea how long that marriage was a bad one, and how long the parties involved have waited to get on with their lives. I think the kids’ feelings should always be considered to some degree. it might be too soon for them to see their parent in a role that does not include the other parent. Lots of counseling is in order.
I have done something similar to that. It was fun, the couples clicked, we have remained close friends for over 35 years. Oh yeah, I married the guy. Double dating is enjoyable and really helps get certain people throught he awkwardness of some dates, because there is a different dynamic and less pressure. It is a good casual type date. Would I recommend it for a first date – probably not. But after a couple of dates, it is nice to go out with another couple and get to know each other’s friends.
If this is not the type lifestyle your sister wants, under no circumstances should she accept such shidduchim. She will likely NOT feel differently about it after marriage, if she marries a kollel guy.She will resent being in that position. Better to work at a job that affords some flexibility of working hours, so she can take off the time for hasving children and raising them at home, and then go back to work either part-time or full-time, when it becomnes necessary. This presupposes that her husband will do what is required of him by the kesubah, and work to support her.
“oomis – Why only by a je will he think cheap jew more than saying it by a non jew? “
First of all, and most obvious, he will not think to himself, “Cheap Jew,” if it is a non-Jew to whom he is delivering, because he will see it is a non-Jew. He might think to himself “Cheap jerk!” But when it is clearly a JEW, it does not need anything more than that Jewishness for him to blame that perceived cheapness on the money-grubbing Jews. Since when do our enemies EVER need an excuse to call us (fill in the blank)_______________ Jew!
So why would you deliberately want to cause such a chillul, forgetting for the moment that in fact, is is a nice thing to show hakoras hatov to ANYONE who delivers something to you or performs a service. Being that he is employed no doubt at fairly low wages, money is the best hakoras hatov.
I tell my granddaughter, age 2 1/2 many different fairytales, such as Goldilocks, Little Red Riding Hood, and The Three Little Pigs. I always change the endings and some of the storyline, because the originals are rather violent. So, Goldilocks becomes a tale about a little girl who got into some trouble for not listening to her Mommy, but learned how to apologize to the bears for going in whre she was not invited, so they were machnis orchim and invite her to come back another time. Little Red Riding Hood becomes a story about bikur cholim and sharing goodies with the Bubby and with Wolf, who wants to make new friends. The TLP, are about brothers who take care of each other, and that doing something that might be a little hard to do at first, is worth the end result (and then she and I will build something with her leggos, to see if it is strong. we also talk about people being friendly to others and sharing, and that the wolf needs to elarn how to be a miztvah boy and not fight with anyone.
She loves my stories. All the fairytales can be adapted, but even if not, as long as it is not violent, kids should be read to frequently. Not everything in life is about the Latke that Ran Away, or …(I just deleted the second story title I originally posted in this paragraph – I gave myself a great idea for a book, and don’t want someone else to chaap it first!!!)
oomis: maybe other girls wouldn’t be so opposed to it…but I think dating and marriage is based on loyalty and trust- what do you think??? “
I agree with you. But there are also some things that people do not feel they can share, until the relationship is taking a serious turn.
There is one Universal Truth, however. There is no way one should ever tell his wife the truth if she is asking him, “Does this make me look fat?” There is NO right answer to that question.
EVER!
Actually, I just heard that a device was invented in E”Y to enable a paraplegic to “walk” for short periods of time. That’s high up there.
A person can begin dating immediately (assuming there is not a shloshim involved, as in acase of spousal death). There is no wait period for a man to get married after giving a Get (except as noted, if marrying a widow or divorcee of less than three months). There is a three month wait for the woman (unless she was never married and is marrying a divorced man, in which case she may marry him right after his divorce).
Emotionally, and with sensitivity to the possible children from the previous marriage, a man and woman may wait several months to either begin dating or to get married. But it is not halachically mandated that they do so, except as noted.
In the case of a man who has lost his wife, no one should be in his shoes and judge him for wanting to remarry quickly. Studies have shown that when someone had a happy marriage, they want to feel that happiness again, quickly. Some people mourn for a long time. Others are able to get back into life more quickly, even as they mourn. No one should judge. Same thing applies to a divorce. Some men cannot live without a wife and will start dating immediately. Some have been burned and don’t want to know about dating. it is not up to us to decided when it’s right for them. Hashem already gave us the proper guidelines.
The only reason Cedarhurst thought 9 months, is that he was confusing the IDEA of a woman having to wait three months to see if she is pregnant by the first man (something she would know most likely within the first trimester), with the actual pregnancy period of 9 months.
TBT, once you are married, you are absolutely correct. But if you have not even gone out??? Don’t hurt a good friend for something that may or may not pan out. He might not go out a second time, but SHE will not forget a betrayal of the friendship, unless she is maskim about it.
Amein! From one best bubby to another, thanks so much for your good wishes. I”YH many simchas by all of us this year.
Nope, they were major hotel lounges. We actually went to some of them on the way back from where we actually had gone on the date. I found it very non-conducive to a FRUM relationship, and that’s all I will say.
Yes.
By five or six dates, at most. Sometimes one knows within one or two dates that it is really not shayach. I say give everyone a second chance, unless they are truly obnoxious to you.
Aries, it says, he is ready to sink or swim. Everything depends on how long the marriage was really over. The official divorce may have been todasy, but the emotions, the feeling of isolation, need to be free, may have been a LONG time in coming. The actual divorce decree is simply closure. But the couple may have already emotionally divorced each other a long time ago. Why should they not get on with their lives? Sad all around, no matter what.
simcha dance
Sorry, R-B , but I beg to differ with you. the C”H occurs when the (often) non-Jewish delivery guy says to himself, “CHEAP JEW!” (And he WILL). It is even worse, when the delivery is of a big bag of restaurant goodies that may have cost 50 or more dollars. You really cannot afford two or three bucks for a tip?????? You just hate the idea of feeling coerced into this by anyone.
EDITED
“Oomis- please don’t compare a man working, to sitting mixed at a Simcha! They’re very different.
I hope I’m not starting a whole argument here. “
Um… I didn’t… you did. I merely mentioned several issues that cause divisiveness among ALL frum people, that really shouldn’t. And sitting mixed is NOT arayos. ARAYOS is arayos.
In your belief system, sitting mixed might chalilah potentially LEAD to arayos. In my world, it normally does not. There are exceptions to everything unfortunately, but I am fairly certain that there are many people R”L (who are NOT MO Jews) who are nichshal in this area. V’hamyvin yavin.
“oomis,
I’m a guy, but, i still agree with your post
very hard, very painful”
Based on your SN alone, sounds like you have not had an easy time of it.
Sometimes it can be a case of O”D, but as none of us really knows for 100% certainty who anyone is, for all we know, the person being insulted might secretly have elicited the mean response, to see what would happen in the CR (i.e. if he or she would be defended by others, or further castigated, etc.) I personally do NOT like the idea of deliberately causing hurt to someone’s feelings by being insulting or embarrassing him/her. Sometimes, one needs to be spoken to a little strongly, because statements were made that cannot go unchallenged.
I always went to my parents, O”H. They lived five minutes away, so my husband could easily go from house to house if he needed something. my mom was wonderful, and I will always be makiras hatov for her endless patience in our upsetting their household for a month (yes, a month). My folks really wanted us to be with them, and I needed the extra hands with my kids. I had three kids, 4 years of age or younger (the oldest actually turned four the day his younger sister was born, and one of them was an 18 month old at home, also), and it was very hectic. Then I had two more kids. Lest you think I was merely a taker, we repaid the favor by always getting the house ready for Pesach for them, by running errands for my mom, who didn’t drive, by sharing the cooking, table setting, serving and cleanup for the shabbosim and yomim tovim we were there, and by making sure the kids did not disturb them from sleeping on Shabbos afternoons. I never left an unmade bed or toys scattered around, by them, either. it was a bracha for me that my mom could help take care of me, as well as of my family, and I will never forget that. I enjoy doing the same for my children, but they are not always in need of actually staying by us.
No, I know the Chumash has the vowels. But as the original Torah does not, how did we first come to have ANY vowelizations? Was this Anshei Knesses Gedolah who assigned the pronunciation we know today?
Hmm… for once, I do not totally disagree…
Pops – GOOD one!
Aries, and off-color jokes are appropriate for same-gender company????
How can guys really have a clue about how to act or talk on a date, when they are separated from females for most of their lives? When we need to “coach” people on a regular basis, on how to be less awkward in mixed company, there is a real problem. Some people need help, because they are very shy, but this seems to be a pervasive situation.
DYZ, so why didn’t you?
“wouldnt edible shaitels lead to hair balls like cats get? “
And hence, the last line of my previous comment…
Cedarhurst – this is the halacha that I was always taught. Immediately, for a man, three months for a woman. If widowed, the man has to wait for Shloshim to be over, I think. Otherwise, he can remarry right away. A woman always has to wait three months (even when elderly), presumably to ensure she is not with child by the other husband. The man does not have to wait, because al pi halacha before R’Gershom, he could have taken a second wife at any time, while married to the first.
If I am mistaken in any of the above, I am sure I will be corrected by eagle-eyed posters.
Vocally, Helfgott is the Pavarotti of this generation. There are secular Jews who have phenomenal voices also.
“cv – Yes one has to pay taxes on tips, why – because its income, Now what does that have to do with tips being mandatory? “
Nothing, wasn’t the point made that tipping is an accepted aspect of wages, because we see it listed on the tax forms? Tips are NOT mandatory. But a normal human being who has received a service, shows menschlechkeit and sensitivity to others by offering a tip to an often-underpaid employee who relies on tips for his parnassah.
No, having lots of green plants is an excellent way of ensuring you have lots of oxygen in the house. Plants take in the CO2 that we exhale, and convert it to back to oxygen, which the plant then “exhales,” as it were.
EEW, EEW, and EEW.
Thanks, Eclipse, yes I do post only from home.
In general, there are a number of issues in this type of situation. How long were they dating before the breakup,how acrimonious was the breakup, who initiated it? I would discuss these things with my friend and then tell her this particular shidduch was redt to you, and you would like to go out with him. How woudl she feel about it? It might not bother her, if he was not for her. My nephew married the girl his best friend dated. It was the BF who made the shidduch.
In this situation, the girl still has feelings for the boy and HE broke it off. If this would cause great agmas nefesh to the other girl, I would not go out with him, unless you don’t care about losing a good friend. Guys come and go, but good friends are 4emant to stay. It’s a judgment call.
“Swallow it. “
You ARE a guy, right? Nobody just “swallows” it. If there is real attachment, it is painful and hurtful, trying to get over a broken relationship. This is like telling someone suffering from a broken leg, “STAND UP, ALREADY!” Life is not like that.
The thing of it is, the loss of a close relationship is like a death, in terms of the emotional and visceral reactions a person might have. Both, need to be grieved. The problem is when the grieving is overly long or disproportionately negatively affecting the person grieving. If they cannot eat or sleep, then professional help may be required. Ditto, if one becomes obsessive.
BasYisroel, that is a little bit of an overreaction, don’t you think? First of all, a wig is not holy, by any stretch of imagination, certainly not any holier than a hat, or a tichel, or snood. If I drop it on the ground, I won’t kiss it when I pick it up. A frum married woman WEARING a wig, is BEHAVING with kedusha, and therein lies a big difference.
The “everyone” who was shocked, need to take a chill pill. Not everything is meant to be offensive to your sensibilities, and not everything is disrespectful.
While I personally do not see the point in calling it “edible” (except, as was pointed out, we sometimes say someone is so beautiful or adorable, i.e. our aineklach, that they look delicious or “good enough to eat”), I guess the person who wrote the ad copy was trying to convey that the wig is really, really gorgeous.
Now I have to go cough up a hairball.
I never understood this, because the TORAH Klaf does not have ANY vowelizations.