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Not paying VAT would require open rebellion. Not paying income tax would be easier since its widely ignored. Since the Israelis consider students and teachers to be “unemployed” (since from a zionist perspective, learning Torah is not productive work), they don’t collect income tax on their salaries. The biggest contribution of the Hareidim to the Israeli economy is the large amount of money (including money spent by foreign students) spent on financing Torah studies that comes from other countries; this will dry up since many of the foreign students are being sent by parents who won’t send them if they see escalating conflict in Israeli yeshivos.
In reality, the only “weapon” of the hareidi community would be to follow the Neturei karta option and ally with the Muslims against the zionists (this was last tried by what is now the Eidah hareidus, but it was then Agudah Yisrael, in the 1920s, and the zionists replied by shooting the frum community’s representative and warned that anyone who tried to make peace with the Arabs would be next). It would take extreme provocation to get the bulk of the Hareidim to prefer a Palestinian state, albeit with Jewish autonomy, over a zionist state (even one that persecutes Jews).
Be wary of what you read in the press. Few journalists have access to North Korea, and the sources of “information” are enemies of the regime. While that doesn’t prove the falsehood of the statements, it suggests being dubious.
Enemies of people, especially when engaged in a life or death armed struggle, do tend to be less than objective in reporting (and making up) facts.
Given that in a war the government will depend on the loyalty of the conscript army, I doubt they’ll try to antagonize them by eating their relatives.
Give the president credit. Last Monday he announced that global warming and he was going to make it colder – and it promptly got colder.
1. Choral music raises many shailohs (content, womens voices, words are distracting)
2. Some classical music has an avodah zarah shailoh (a shailoh, not an objection)
3. There is the issue (for non-zionists) that we aren’t supposed to be listening to music for enjoyment while in mourning for Yerusalim.
4. Otherwise, it is certainly prefereable to the usual noises of the “real world” – especially
when commuting.
It would make sense. He believes, as does much of the Israeli ruling class, that after three years in the army, most Hareidim will come out as normal Israelis. They might not make it all the way to hiloni, but at least they’ll be good dati leumi. From his perspective, it means they’ll have “won” by having become “real” Israelis. The demographic threat of Israel turning into a Jewish state, rather than a zionist one, would have been averted. Remember the problem isn’t that the army lack manpower, but that the growing hareidi population is threatening the character of the medinah.
He’s probably wrong. Traditionally, Jews are like iron. Fire turns them into steel. I would suggest a more likely scenario is we’ll end up with, for better or worse, an Islamic Palestine replacing Israel due both to the army being seriously weakened from within, and the Hareidi community switching from passive acceptance of zionism to active resistance.
English is a dynamic language with no language academy. Neither Congress nor Parliament decides what is correct.
Most of the people posting on CR speak a “frum” dialect, which blends many Hebrew and Yiddish words. Just because the Oxford dictionary didn’t hear of a world, doesn’t mean it isn’t a kosher word. While in some countries there is an official dialect and all other dialects and usages are by definition incorrect, that isn’t the case in English. Yeshivish is no more or less proper than the Queens English or Brooklynese or the standard American dialect (spoken in most of America west of the Appalachians and north of the Mason-Dixon line, but not in the places where most orthodox Jews live).
Many times one wants to use a Hebrew or Yiddish word, since English lacks an adequate vocabulary for many Jewish concepts.
1. No one claims the army is short on manpower. That’s not an issue.
2. Israel has a serious demographic “time bomb” and many hilonim hope that after spending three years in the army at ages 18-21, many hareidim will chose to follow a “normal” lifestyle, thereby eliminating the threat of hareidim becoming a dominant group in Israel. The whole idea of zionism is to build a “modern” secular state, and that isn’t possible unless something can be done to reduce the number of hareidim. If hareidim keep having large families, and if only a small number go “off the derekh” (and many non-hareidim become baalei tseuvah), the zionist dream is dead.
3. For those who see Torah and Mitsvos as the basis of being Jewish, the yeshiva students are bearing the burden of national survival, giving up much parnassah to learn frull time, whereas the hilomim are deadbeats contributing nothing to Jewish survival.
4. Even if you ignore a gemara that says that if the malchus wants to call you to the army, and you are learning, you can use lethal force to defend yourself – some people hold that establishing a secular Jewish state, which rejects Jewish law and tradition as its basis, is not only not required by halacha, but is in fact prohibited. If that is the case, we are the “rodfim” and the Palestinians are the “nirdafim”, and we are prohibited from killing them or destroying their property meaning service in the IDF is prohibited. In the past people with these views, who may be a fairly high percentage of the hareidim community, have not needed to confront the zionists since they were exempted from the army by claiming they were in yeshiva (the Israelis require very little time in Beis Medrash to be a full time student – most Baal ha-Battim spend close to the required time even if they don’t aspire to be Bnei Torah).
1. If you base the Israeli claim to Eretz Yisrael on the United Nations (rather than on the basis of Torah, which raises many issues since Torah was clearly given in order to facilitate doing mitsvos, not building a secular state), then the United Nations can simply repeal its resolution and pick a different one. In addition, the British claim to Palestine was purely based on conquest, and if the Brits had a right by conquest, all the Arabs have to do is conquer and its there’s pure and simple. Over the last 70 years, international law has evolved to the point that no country can claim a right by virtue of conquest – and you’ll note that no country has added territory since the end of World War II by conquest unless they can assert the people support them.
2. My comments on the army were based on being in a regular (i.e. secular) unit. If the army keeps religious soldiers in separate religious units it will minimize the immediate problems but create a discrimination issue that will become a “time bomb.” Problems include fast days (army rules exempt soldiers from working, but units villify those who don’t work on fast days), davening schedules (soldiers are released for davening rather than davening being part of the schedule), disputes of kashruth and the fact that most kitchen personnel are hiloni, behavior of male and female hiloni soldiers in ways we can not discuss (it was with a good basis that some gedolim compared the army to a “Beis Busha” and discussed with female conscripts were considered to be a “shevuyah”). Note the recent incident where some frum Dati Leumi officer candidates were disqualified from becoming officers because they refuse to listen to women singing (i.e. refuse to be present with naked women). Unless the hilonim agree to have the whole army be run based on the parameters of hareidi society, allowing for some separate “Nahal hiloni” units- there will be a serious problem.
3. “National service” is supported only by religious Jews who want to serve but hold they are prohibited (being female). Unless you recognize full time learning as “national service” , it has no support from the hareidi community except as an alternative to military service for hareidi baal ha-battim who don’t want to serve in the army (an option that has been rejected)
4. The government has occasionally arrested hareidim for not serving, and the hiloni press anticpates that hareidi who refuse to serve in the army will go to prison. Unless the medinah agrees to regard hareidim as religious objectors, with the penalty limited to loss of some government fund (similar to what happens to Israeli Muslims who don’t serve in the army, and no worse), a very serious crisis is brewing.
There are three distinct issues.
One is Bitul Torah -that would apply even if you are no so frum as to have problems in the army, and totally support zionism.
The second is the “spiritual” danger which is a polite way of saying that army harasses frum soldiers and persecutes them if they are too frum (e.g. gives you a choice between davening with a minyan or having breakfast) with the hope that the soldiers will lower their level of observance and become more normal – this can be mitigated in several ways, including having special “segregated” frum units.
The third is the belief that the state is treff, i.e. there is no halachic basic for the zionists to have seized control from the Arabs and therefore we are the agressors and we have no right to kill the Arabs in defense of what is little better than theft, and certainly there is no basis to be bitul Torah or to put up with harassment in order to help defend the zionist state.
zahavasdad: In response to your “Unless they have US or EU citizenship they arent going anywhere” – once the government starts arresting hareidim for refusing to serve in the army on any sort of halachic grounds (as opposed to at present where people get arrested for draft evasion and paperwork errors) – any Israeli hareidi gets the status of a person being persecuted because of their religion which makes them a eligible to request asylum. I suspect many countries that dislike Israel might be pleased to have them. Indeed, I would be surprised if the some of the adjacent Arab countries would welcome them in order to “show” to the world that their war is against the “zionists” rather than the “Jews.” Draft refusal means telling the army that you are present and able to serve, and are refusing to do so since the army and the medinah are contrary to Torah. To be taken seriously, anyone making that claim should not have a history of being on the government’s payroll. Given that the hilonim are not idiots, and tend to be very sensitive to international human rights laws (which sometimes protect religious minorities), they will probably make the only penalty for draft-refusers is that you lost the government entitlements (to the same extent on Arab Muslims who also don’t serve on religious grounds). If the government were to raid a Beis Medrash and start seizing students it would be among the stupidest things they ever did, and future historians would probably say that it was the point when a single Palestinian state from the desert to the sea became likely.
Veltz Meshugener: Any good education will work. It doesn’t matter if you are learning Greek and Latin (and all educated westerners did in the 18th century), or Hebrew and Yiddish. Being educated isn’t a function of which odd facts you’ll never need in real life, but rather of having the skills you need. A good yeshiva education gives you those skills.
When the goyim switched from “classical” to “modern” subjects, we considered it and the rabbanim chose to stick to our “classical” subjects. Time has proven them right. The goyim’s schools do not appear to be producing students with a love of learning, or respect for their subjects. The schools are famous for things we’ld rather not be known for. The vulgarity and crudeness of their culture speaks volumes on how well this educational experiment worked. Their schools are infamous for behaviors of the sort we don’t discuss here – all resulting from their curriculum. And it turns out the grduates lack the skills needed for careers, and have trouble writing English beyond the level of a tweet. Our rabbanim were correct to emphasize the “classics”. Learning specific skills without a thorough grounding in your own heritage leave you a intellectual zombie.
If someone needs them, the rest can be learned. Increasingly “distance education” is become the norm. Virtually all introductory college courses are covered by the AP/CLEP system.
Even when discussing schools that radically reject secular subjects, we have nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for.
dotnetter: I am fully aware that modern western education no longer features the classics. You can tell by the quality of the writing. People like Adam Smith (who invented modern economics) and Benjamin Franklin (who when he wasn’t the leading politician of his era, and one of the leading businessmen, was also one of the leading scientists of the 18th century), not to mention people like George Washington (a major player in agricultural research, not to mention a few other things) and Thomas Jefferson – all had “classical” educations. Their proficiency is other subjects including all the ones we consider to “practical” were largely self-taught. The point is that a kid with a pure yeshivish (i.e. studying the Jewish classics) background who wants to enter a career is in no way prevented from doing so, and maybe better off than the typical public school who has been learning how to have self-esteem while being politically correct without mastering either specific academic skills or developing the ability to learn on his own.
It’s unlikely to happen since Eretz Yisrael has lower living costs (especially if you avoid the big cities) unless the government starts actively rounding up all hareidim as draft dodgers or accessories, and even then I’ld suspect the Palestinians will get clever and invite some yeshivos to move into Area A. If the yeshiovos and seminaries catering to foreigners start to close, that will take many thousands of jobs with them, and if the government starts raiding frum institutions to arrest people it will scare off foreign students (or rather, scare off their parents).
Even the “worst” of our schools in secular studies provide an excellent education. It’s the equivalent of the “classical” education that was the norm in western countries until about 150 years ago. They learn they can master hard subjects, learn to work together, learn to work independently. There’s nothing wrong with a “classical” education (ours are in Hebrew, there’s in Latin and Greek). Classically educated people have gone on to mastery of many other subjects. The schools that skip the modern subjects don’t realize it, but they are carrying on a tradition that has produced many of the greatest scholars and scientists of the western world. Only a simple minded person needs to be “spoon fed” everything in school. Most people need to get into the mindset to learn and study (our schools do that nicely), and they can tackle anything.
If they get interested in some other subject, it’s just a matter of getting the book and studying it, and take the test – as many have done. Meanwhile the public school kids often end up being sent to Rikers Island to learn a trade – we can look at Bloomberg at the like and tell them to get their act together and leave us alone.
No, we don’t work for YWN.
Remember that in America, one can study on one’s own, and then take the SAT, CLEP, AP exams, and go to a university. Our kids learn how to study on their own, or in havrusa, and are quite prepared to take on subjects if they ever have a need for them.
The most likely course of action is that those who object to serving will not be imprisoned, but will be treated like anyone else (e.g. Palestinian citizens of Israel) who doesn’t serve in the army, and that any government support for yeshivos will be tied to military service. If the army also decides to accomodate hareidim in the military (at the very least in special units that are conducted according to halacha), the crisis will pass.
There are many in the zionist movement who believe that they can use conscription to break the hareidi community, and that after three years in a Mitsvah-free atmosphere the conscripts will come back as good secular (or at least “dati”) zionists, but that’s unlikely. Such policies would encourage widespread resistance and probably undermine the state (undermine as in forcing many hareidim to adopt an Eidas hareidus/Satmar/Neturei Karta position, and support a one-state solution based on Palestinian control and Jewish autonomy).. The zionists are sane enough to not push that hard.
Patience.
The “witch hunt” type cases tend to fall apart within a few years – so if he was framed, it will come out. Evidence that was surpressed can always be released and publicized once the case is done in the courts. New witnesses, for either side, can always come foreward. Since the case was closely tied to anti-Satmar biases, which are likely to get worse (especially if Israel starts conscripting anti-zionist hareidim, which Satmar will protest vocally, causing more anti-Satmar hatred by many of the same people who brought this case), the issue won’t disappear.
Anyone, male or female, should dress in the matter expected by the situation and as anticipated by the person they are dealing with. That is especially true of a shidduch “date”, but is really true of everything else.
I submit the “problem” is that girls are ready to get married (and “come on the market”) at the point they feel they are ready to become mothers and have children, whereas boys don’t become available until they feel they are ready to fulfill the primary task of a father, which is not (though many goyim disagree) making the woman pregnant, but rather supporting a family. Due to the current economic situation, that means many boys aren’t ready to become heads of households until their parnassah is secure.
In the current economy, a boy who spends several years learning and then several years learning a trade/going to college won’t be ready to marry until his mid-20s at the earliest, whereas most girls are ready to marry in their late teens.
if he wants to marry a girl who wants a clean-shaven boy
Rule for shidduch that hold fast in all situations: Look and act like the person the other person wants to marry
The $100 (Benjamin Franklin) and the $10 (Alexander Hamilton).
In the past, other non-presidents were on them (some of the first Greenbacks had the picture of the then sitting Secretary of the Treasury – probably since he was the one to blame if they didn’t get accepted).
Avi K. Correct. Race is defined based on purely physical inherited characteristic based on a common ancestry. For example. sub-Saharan Africans have dark skin. Racism is the belief that such characteristics justify classifying people, assuming their characteristics. For example, someone cited the statement (dictum really) that the Bnei Yismael are violence-prone. But for this to be a racial characteristic (as opposed to a cultural norm), then one would expect Jews descended from Yismaelim to show the characteristic, which isn’t the case. By way on contrast, Black Africans who convert to Judaism still look Black. Believe in “racism” is, as I said, denying both the nature of the Jewish people as the people who chose to accept Torah, and suggests that one doesn’t accept the idea that all Bnei Adam are created in Ha-Shem’s image.
Having segregated “frum” units should be seen as an insult. It means you are fit to die for the army, but not fit to be seen or promoted. The best analogy would be to the famous Buffalo soldiers (“colored” regiments) of the American army that existed from the Civil War through World War II, or the “native” or “colonial” units of the British army (both George Washington and Moshe Dayan served in such units). One should note that neither Goerge not Moshe were known by history as having been enthused by their love of their respective King Georges.
To say the army has changed, the command structure and most units would be frum (i.e. a ban on pritsus, enforcing yichad and negiah, all food being strictly kosher, all work schedules based on Jewish religious observances even if there are no frum soldiers in a unit, etc.), and perhaps having some “special” units for hilonim who while being patriotic zionists just can’t stand frum people.
Almost all gedolim, including many of the “zionist” ones, believe that yeshiva students should be exempt from the army since the work they are doing is at least as critical to national survival. Depending on politics, some gedolim believe even Baal ha-battim should refuse to serve in the army either because the army is anti-Torah, or because the Medinah is constituted contrary to halacha.
If there is a change in policy, we will see the leading yeshivos demanding that they be allowed to sponsor hesder programs, and we’ll see the children and grandchildren of the gedolim joining elite combat units and striving to be officers (and if that happens, you can be certain that exposing your self to naked women will no longer be part of the test for becoming an IDF officer).
Dear “talmud”: All masechtas are included in the Talmud, regardless of whether or not a given masechtas has a gemara on it. Perhaps you meant to ask “of those mascechtas with a Babli gemara, which is your favorite?”.
Then you should ask, favorite for which purpose? For example, if you need to learn one fast in order to make a siyum on erev Pesach, ones such as Megillah and Beitsah win.
However it is clear the Pirkei Avos is without a doubt the most widely studied portion of the Talmud, the one most frequently published and commented on, and the one that has had the most impact.
Based on frequency of publication and the extent it is studied, and the extent it has influenced Hebrew language and Jewish thought, clearly the winner is: Pirkei Avos.
No one claims there is a requirement to grow a beard, though as a matter of fashion almost all Hasidim (and most frum Jews) wear one. After all, most men were created by Ha-Shem with beards, and who are we to question His judgement. Maybe the more modern do, but Hasidim are happy to do things the way Ha-Shem wants, that’s what defines being a hasid – and it is obviously Ha-Shem wants beards.
There are halachic issues on shaving and cutting hair, but no one requires growing a beard. If for some reason you can’t grow a beard, you can’t grow a beard.
If people waited until they were mature enough to get married, they would be too old to have children. Therefore we must accept that for some reason Ha-Shem wants children to get married while they still are acting like children. If Ha-Shem wanted people to be mature adults when they got married, puberty would be about 40, and childbearing would be at the age we typically are becoming grandparents.
Of course Yidden are superior. When I was little, and realized that there black Jews, and Asian Jews, and all sort of Jews – I figured out that “race” is totally irrelevent. We all chose to be Jews (note to snotty FFBs, your ancestors were converts). Since it is impossible that blond blue-eyed goyim were superior to dark skinned Jews, racism is obviously absurd from a Jewish perspective.
Arguing for any sort of racial supremacy implies belief either in the aspects of Darwinian theory (and in particular social darwinism) that reject the possibility of divine creation, or indicate belief in the theory of multiple creations. We have a kaballah that Ha-Shem created all humans, and that the only meaningful distinction is that we chose to accept Torah. The belief that one race is descended from Adam ha-Rishon, and another race from someone else, is pure apikorses.
What matters is whether the parties that support learning Torah and exempting yeshiva students, that is to say United Torah Judaism, Shas, and Bayit Yehudi (i.e. the parties who consider learnign Torah something the state should support) either are strong enough to form a government (highly unlikely, though they will have over 30 seats, which is their best performance in history) OR (as is more likely) to convince the secular elites not to go through with their plan to ban 18-21 year olds from learning Torah – convincing as part of the coalition process. Since most of the secular parties are more concerned about matters such as economics and national security, they’ll probably cut a deal to allow Torah in return for getting a free hand in other areas – as has been the case since 1949.
In the 1950s and 1960, the hareidim and religious zionists consistently got about 14 seats. Now they are getting over 30. While they disagree on many issues (Bayit Yehudi is as least as interested in national security as it is yiddishkeit, and Shas is almost as concerned with social and economic issues as with yiddishkeit), they are approaching the point where Israel will have three equal blocks (Nationalist, Left/Socialist, Religious) and it is not inconceivable that if the religious parties get together, they might someday be in a position to form a government.
benignuman: All combat soldiers are volunteers. The difference between a professional army and the conscript army is that most of the “jobniks” wouldn’t be there, and there work would be done by serious professionals rather than highly inefficient conscripts. Most of the jobniks (especially among the female coscripts) have make-work jobs. Some who volunteers now to be a combat (kravi), will still do so – and that’s what matters. If the army were short of manpower, they would be bending over backwards to create incentives for hareidim to enlist (rather than, as an example, making promotion to officer contingent on willing to listen to women singing).
The United States is not threated by foreign invasion. The last time an enemy threated the US, so many people wanted to volunteer that “selective service” was introduced so they would be enlisted in an orderly way. Even though the US military is primarily tasked with being a “global policeman” rather than national defense, it attracts many volunteers. If you look at countries actually threated with invasion (e.g Britain and Australia in World War II), one discovers that the percentage of volunteers jumps way up. It should be noted that Britain conquered one of the world’s largest empires without conscription for its army.
Most of the world puts on a talis at Bar Mitzvah or earlier. In Eastern Europe, the minhag was to put one on only at marriage. This of course refers only to the larger tallis that is worn as a cloak. The smaller tallis which is worn as a shirt is put on in early childhood (when toilet trained, at age 3, or thereabouts).
One theory is this has to do with historic poverty. The idea be that until marriage you haven’t become a grown up and therefore shouldn’t go around dressing like one.
1. Having a professional army would be a logical solution. Almost all countries have switched to professional armies, including the United States. The days when you could take someone off the street, give him a cram course, and send him out to be cannon foder – are long gone. This would be a “win-win” solution since Hareidim who refuse to serve in the army for religious or political reasons would be free to work in the “official” economy, and the professionalism of the army would be better militarily.
2. However since 1948, the zionists have seen the IDF primarily as a tool for “nation building”. They feel a need to break down religious, cultural and ethnic barriers and create the “modern Israeli” – who happens to be secular. They are very reluctant to give this up.
3. Another serious implication for the Israelis, is that being a veteran is the historic prerequisite for many jobs and for entry into the establishment. Eliminating this barrier who create the possibility of Hareidim expanding beyond the existing ghetto and taking over the country – which given that fact that Hareidim like children, and Hilonim don’t – is a serious threat. Remember that the whole idea of zionism, since the 19th century, was to create a nation free from the yoke of Torah. From the zionist ruling class’s perspective, an Eretz Yisrael whose economy and political systems are dominated by hareidim means that their movement is a total failure.
1. Very little changed as “same gender” relationships have been legalized for almost a generation (and in most states, including ones most Jews live in, well before that). The only changes pertain to economic aspects of such relationships. “Same sex marriage” is against Torah – filing a joint tax return for two people of the same gender who maintain a common household is irrelevants from a halachic perspective.
2. Contrary to propaganda, there are very few “gays.” Almost all people are “straight” (i.e. hetereosexual). A “gay” species would quickly go extinct. The biggest and most perverse changes in western law, especially in terms of the number of people affected, pertained to liberalizing divorce to the point when marriage became nothing more than temporary partnership, and perhaps most importantly, legalizing extra-marital you know what (by repealing the laws against what had been in the statute books as the crimes of adultery and fornication). These changes occured gradually between the mid-19th century and late 20th century, but are well accepted, and probably more devasting, and more objectionable from a Torah perspective.
mdd: ” Israel has the fifth-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world. You can as well discuss abolishing France or UK. It is not 1930 anymore? Do you hear me? “
For Israel to destroy Islam, it would have to destroy close to 30 countries. If it kills a few, they’ll have to answer to the survivors. Unlike the 1930s, when France and the UK can close to destruction, destruction is much easier now. No need to march an army and fight house to house. All you have to do is drop a few bombs and let radiation do the rest. There are plenty of Muslims who can move in afterwards to dispose of the bodies and settle down. “Mutually assured destruction” doesn’t offer protection if one of the sides is a bunch of religious fanatics, or if one side is reasonable certain of surviving. While the zionists wish to believe they have to defeat the Palestinians, and no more, to win – the reality is Israel would need to defeat (or make peace) with the entire Islamic world. No Israel party, except perhaps Neturei Karta, has a program that could lead to peace.
To answer the comment on”hillul ha-shem”, in terms a secular could understand: If someone wants to be a paratrooper, and his friends and family want him to work in kitchen (safer, good chances to steal food for the family, etc.), the friends and family would be outraged (equivalent to hillul ha-shem in our culture) – be really the one who wants to be a paratrooper is praiseworthy (equivalent to kiddush ha-shem among the yidden). It is those who give up their parnassah and the liklihood of a comfortable middle class existence by choosing to learn Torah instead of playing soldier, that are doing a kiddush ha-shem, even if unappreciated by those who don’t understand that Torah is the key to our survival.
On the internet, nobody knows you are a …..
Any given person might be male or female, Jewish or goy, Hasid or Litvak, human or alien, animal or plant.
benignuman: “Are you seriously suggesting that the IDF is not preventing a wholesale slaughter of the Jews in Eretz Yisroel? “
Actually, yes. In fact, they are guaranteeing one. As nuclear weapons become increasingly common in the Islamic world (Pakistan has them and Iran is getting one and those Arabs who distrust Iran are likely to be next), it is increasingly likely that someone will eventually manage to nuke Israel. While Israel has a second strike capability, revenge is a poor substitute for survival.
The military solution won’t work. The Muslims will never accept a non-Muslim country in what they regard as their turf. They will accept, based on past and even current practices, a non-Muslim community that accepts that its the Muslim’s neighborhood and are content to be autonomous, i.e., accept being “second class citizens.”
Hiloni Jews have a western ideal of civil and political rights. They also are very much into being libertines and other behavior that Islam (and not coincidentally, Judaism) can’t put up with. The hilonim dream they can offer bribes and lands and make the Palestinians go away, but the hilonim can’t offer to give up being part of Euro-American secular culture nor can they accept loss of political primacy.
The Hareidim can make meaningful concessions to the Muslims (ban gays, close down the brothels, ban ribit, require modest clothing, etc.), and Hareidim can accept be an autonomous community within someone else’s country. Running the government has never been a priority for us. Only the Hareidim can make peace. Only the Hareidim can prevent the destruction of the Jewish communities of Eretz Yisrael.
Of course, for those less worldly, the survival will be due to our support of Torah and Mitsvos. It certainly won’t be because of the IDF’s skills at schechting goyim.
Avi K:
So it is clearly a ????? ?????
Whether the IDF is saving Jewish lives is subject to debate. The contrary argument is that by having launched a avoidable war against the Muslims, they have endangered Jewish lives, and it is not a “milhemes mitzvah” but rather a “milhemes stus”. From this perspective, Hareidi Jews would be no worse off under an Islamic regime than under the zionist regime (and if that occured, we wouldn’t be dealing with a government that encourages mass abortion of Jewish babies, or engages on religious coercion on Jews to give up Torah and Mitsvos). Muslims historically tolerated Jews as long as we were content to be “second class citizens” which we usually were and in all fairness what we are in Eretz Yisrael.
For some with the above view, the IDF should regard them as conscientious objectors and should make no attempt at conscription, and the only sanctions for non-service in the army should be those used against Israeli Arabs who don’t serve in the army.
For those who disagree with the above, i.e., support the zionist state in spite of it being non-frum, there are still the issues of the relative importance of learning Torah versus playing soldier, and the issue of non-accomodation of religious practices in the IDF (which varies widely between units). These are separate issues.
note that in the quote: “It is a mitzva for every able-bodied Jew to serve in the Israeli army in some capacity, even those who have exemptions in non-emergency cases.(Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4)” – the Rambam no where says that “Israel” means any state with many Jews in it that happens to be in Eretz Yisrael, and that vigorously denies any connection to the Jewish state that existed in Eretz Yisrael in ancient times. He is talking about a malchus established based on Torah – not one that rejects Torah as the source of law and is based on non-Jewish law. While many religious zionists hope that Medinat Yisrael might become a Jewish state, the vast majority of Israelis and especially those who run Eretz Yisrael reject the idea.
If Medinat Yisrael were replaced by a Jewish state, one that stated that its law was Torah (i.e. its Supreme Court consisted of scholars who would declare laws unconstitutional for being against Torah), and one that asserted that it was the successor to the ancient state — then it might be shailoh. But as long as the mainstream zionists insist that “Medinat Yisrael” is not a Jewish state but only a “Democratic” state in which many Jews live, it isn’t even worth debating.
yehudayona – However it turns out the increase (compared to last year) in the payroll tax is more significant than the other taxes that were increased (or rather, whose reducations were rolled back). The change as a percentage of disposable income was greater for the middle and lower class, than the affluent. While the affluent tend to fund investment, the less than affluent are the consumer. From a macroeconomic perspective, this was not a good idea.
Indeed, the whole idea of a payroll tax is probably unwise. It penalizes work and encourages people to avoid employment, and at the same time makes it especially expensive to higher poorly paid workers who barely do enough work to justify their employment. The only candidate who addressed this was Herman Cain with his proposal that would abolish payroll taxes and add a federal consumption (sales) tax.
While we are often skeptical of Darwinian theory – part of it is non-controversial. Survival of a group is based on reproductive ability, and a hereditary (genetic) trait that prevents reproduction means you won’t have any children, meaning the trait won’t be passed on. Infertility can not be the result of inheritance since if your parents had the trait, you wouldn’t be here. Hereditary infertility is an oxymoron.
The above refers to dominant traits. Recessive traits can interfere with having children, but these require both parents to have the “recessive” trait, and then there is typically only a 25% chance of a child having the trait. Dor yeshorim addresses this with prenatal testing for the more common recessive traits that need to be avoided (again, both have to have the same gene). To minimize the chance of two people sharing a recessive trait, try to avoid marrying a close relative. Your first cousin may share a lot of your recessive traits, a total stranger won’t.
zahavasdad “What did the Charedi population in the US do when there was a draft?”
Even during the war (that tells you my age, since anyone who say “the war” is referring to World War II) – all yeshiva students were exempted. This being a war where the consequences of defeat would be very ominous both for Jews and the country – and remember that the Germans were operating in places like the coast off Long Island and they were building batteries in Brooklyn.
While there weren’t all that many Orthodox Jews in America 70 years ago, and draft boards had discretion in who they drafted, those that did serve in the army has a hard time though one should note that most people who belonged to Orthodox shuls at the time were not Shomer Shabbos and had standards of kashruth we would consider unacceptable (and those with strict standards were likely to be in yeshiva or to have a family). It should be noted that for the most part, military service in the American army correlated with a sharp decline in level of observance (which is probably why the 1950s were the “golden age” of Reform and Conservative).
While it never was an issue for Jews, America historically exempts persons who have a religious objection to serving in the military.
Most western countries consider it to be human rights violation to do otherwise.
A more interesting question would be on service of Jews in World War I, particularly in the Hapsburg’s army, where there was a fairly high level of support for service by, and accomodation of, religious Jews (remember, they were fighting the Czar who was a notorious anti-semite).
Whether Hagel is a monster is unclear. His views are typical of the Democratic party, and Chuck’s fearless leader did select him for a position for which he is clearly qualifed. And Schumer was recently relected on a platform of supporting Obama.
Ben Levi: “I think the question is phrased wrong.
The real question is, Why are the Gedolei Yisroel opposed to the Draft?”
Answer: 1) The conscription of yeshiva students is opposed by almost all hareidi gedolim since learning Torah is more important than being a soldier, and learning Torah is the key to Jewish survival, especially in Eretz Yisrael. 2) The conscription of hareidim who are not learning full time is opposed by most gedolim since the army engages in systematic coercion aimed at forcing draftees to be substantially less frum in the hope that they will leave the hareidi community and become part of the mainstream of Israeli society – this leads to many hareidim who want to be baal ha-battim who probably would gladly serve if they felt the army welcomed them staying in yeshiva and working “under the table”. — 3) Anti-zionist gedolim oppose military service since the feel the medinah is treff, regardless of whether an individual is learning and regardless of accomodation of a Torah lifestyle.
These are three separate issues. Even if the army were glatt kosher (meaning all units were strictly Shomer Shabbos, strict in kashruth, no pritsus, no sexual harassment or sexual exploitation, no issues with immodest dress, etc.), and even if there were no shailohs about the halachic status of the medinah – the gedolim would want the professional students to learn full time. And as long as the medinah is not replaced by a Malchus Beis Dovid with a Sanhedrin with smicha and a Kohen Gadol with Urim V’Tumin to decide matters of war and peace- the anti-zionist gedolim will oppose army service.
GeshmakMan: Obama can neither raise nor lower taxes. The last time our chief executive tried to raise taxes by himself (assuming you are in former colony other than New York, which was Dutch at the time), it ended up in him losing his head. The Congress sets the tax rates – this goes back 800 years, and is pretty much set in stone.
The 2% increase in the payroll tax (on the middle class and lower), and the other tax increases (on the upper middle class and high), were all enacted by the Congress. While they were called the “Bush tax cuts” that were somewhat allowed to expire, they were also enacted by the Congress.
And we go over the upcoming fiscal cliff, it is the fault of the Congress. Indeed, if you get a solid majority in Congress (meaning a bi-partisan one), Obama has absolutely no say in the matter. The president sets the tone and has the famous “bully pulpit” – but he isn’t all that powerful.
popa_bar_abba: You found a solution. Quick, phone Jack Lew. He’s the designated scapegoat this year. Having Dr. Seuss replace Lord Keynes as the source of economic policy – brilliant. Perhaps they could have a platinum klurg. Then they could get the Cat in the Hat to clean up the mess (something he is very good at). Horton hearing the Who is definitely preferable to hearing the President and Congress trash talking instead of negotiating. But avoid the “Oobleck” since we all know where unwise government policies lead when they get out of control.