Always_Ask_Questions

Syag > That’s not educating, that’s indoctrination.

I was responding to previous suggestions that kids learn only their way is right at school and learn the rest after. Your point is well taken. I was able to send kids to an elementary school that was sufficiently good at not fully disrespecting others. But I think parental example is even more important than school. I regularly take kids to different types of events or quote different sources. When I was younger, I would quote Misnagdim to Chasidim and Chasidim to Misnagdim 🙂

ujm > is appropriately left to be learnt once a person is older.

from whom? If everyone in school insists that it is their way or highway, then they’ll stay the same as adults. I am not sure though what they are learning that they are not aware of opinion diversity. If they are not learning Gemorah that is full of opinions, they may be at least learning Sh’A that is a Sephardi sefer with Ashkenazi notes.

Eishes, > i am not against petch, but i am against my mothers petch and discipline

Rambam writen in Deos that one should bend the other way trying to fix a middah. When you are affected by a bad middah, it is natural to you to try just to “decrease’ it without fully feeling the wrong of this approach. As you are already aware of the problems you had, it is imperative to you to err the other way towards chesed.

quoting from R Twersky on a topic of one abusive parent:
proper discipline is NOT abusive (his capitalization).. Ramabam (Hil Ishus 16) husband and wife must address each other respectfully. A person who violates this halakha cannot eb considered frum any more than .. any other halakhah. .. Abusive behavior of any kind – verbal, emotional, physical, .. shold be nipped in the bud… promptly seek counseling on how to .. arrestiit and prevent from progressing

Ujm my source, as far as I can recall, was reliable but secondary, and I am not able to find the source right now. I was almost ready to agree with your claim, but see my other posts with quotes from Laws of Outreach sefer. Chazon Ish was strict on handshakes, but more lenient on Brochos. So, I’ll stand by my recollection of the story.

Also, see those quotes for multitudes of subtle psychological considerations and opinions on these issues – will the person be offended? is handshake cold/warm/hot potato(e)?

One more thought here: given variety of opinions, there is a greater danger here to use your bias to be either meikel or machmir and justify your own thinking by finding appropriate quotes. Just in an example above, one person might (incorrectly) learn that he’s following Chazon Ish by shaking hands, learning it from Kiddush, or similarly (incorrectly) conclude from not shaking hands to not making Kiddush.

extended quotes from Rabbi Avraham Edelstein Laws of Outreach Male-Female interactions, 2019

Tosafos Yom Tov, who writes in the Lechem Chamudos [perek 3] that in each locale the local practice determines what is considered sufficient attire.

Some Acharonim interpret the words of the Lechem Chamudos literally and that the determination of which parts of the body need to be covered is subjective.23 However, others understand that the Lechem Chamudos is merely ruling that the status of the forearm is determined by local custom, but matters of sanctity cannot be said before exposed upper arms and thighs

Mishnah Berurah writes that even in a society in which married women regularly go out with their hair exposed, men may not utter matters of sanctity before such women. This is because her hair is inherently considered by Chazal to be something personal and intimate…However, a number of Acharonim contend that in such a society, when there is a need, it is permissible for matters of sanctity to be expressed in the presence of a married woman whose hair is uncovered.T hese poskim understand that a woman’s hair is not intrinsically an intimate part of her body. Rather, the reason that a man may not recite Shema in the presence of a woman whose hair is exposed is so that the sight should not cause him to have illicit thoughts. Hence, in a society in which many women expose their hair, the sight of such hair will not induce illicit thoughts. Therefore, matters of sanctity can be said there. This is the view of the S’ridei Eish,31 the Ben Ish Chai,32 the Aruch HaShulchan,33 Rav Moshe Feinstein,34 and Rav Ovadia Yosef.35

T here appears to be a contradiction in the writings of the Chazon Ish regarding this matter. On one hand, the Chazon Ish writes unequivocally that the fact that many women go out without covering their hair does not justify saying words of sanctity in their presence.36 On the other hand, the Chazon Ish permitted giving a Chazal-based mussar lesson to an audience that includes women whose hair is uncovered if the speaker does not focus his attention on it.37 Rav Pesach Eliyahu Falk explained that the Chazon Ish maintained that it was forbidden for a man to say words of Torah before married women whose hair was exposed. However, for the important need for kiruv, it is proper to say matters of sanctity there.38

However, the Chazon Ish maintains a more lenient position. He holds that closing one’s eyes or turning away is even permitted l’chatchilah.42 In fact, the Chazon Ish held that a man is permitted to say matters of sanctity with his eyes open, even if he can see the problematic area with peripheral vision — as long as he does not perceive that which he is seeing.43 However, according to the stringent view of the Mishnah Berurah, ideally the only solution is for the man to turn his entire body away so that he is facing in a different direction.

It is said that when the Chasam Sofer needed to utter sacred matters in the presence of a woman who was not properly dressed, he donned glasses and shut his eyes.

In 1970, Rav Ovadia Yosef was awarded the prestigious Israel Prize by then prime minister Golda Meir. When Mrs. Meir extended her hand in congratulations, Rav Yosef did not respond, causing international condemnation for his refusal to shake a woman’s hand.

T he Shach rules that even if we are stringent like Rambam, physical contact that is not sensuous, such as when a male physician examines a female patient, is not prohibited by the Torah.73 Some other Acharonim argue that there is a Torah prohibition, even in this case.74 But, the later poskim follow the position of the Shach.75 Some authorities understand the ruling of the Shach to mean that there is still a rabbinic injunction — except in cases of danger to life.76 But, the mainstream view is that physical contact is permissible when there it is no sensuous pleasure elicited.77

. A formal handshake is not usually an expression of affection. Consequently, there is room to argue that such handshakes should be permitted in halachah. This was indeed the perspective of traditional German Jews. In fact, Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch used to extend his hand in greeting to women.79 Other rabbanim would only accept the hand of a woman who extend

Rav Isser Yehuda Unterman (1886–1976), the late Chief Rabbi of Israel, was once asked why he was lenient in shaking the hand of a woman who greeted him. He replied, “I am not being lenient about touching [women]; I am stringent about respecting humanity.”83 Similarly, Rav Chaim Berlin (1832–1912), wrote that if a non-Jewish woman extends her hand in greeting, a man should shake her hand as the Torah wants us to convey a demeanor of amicable respectability.84

Rav Yaakov Yitzchak Ruderman said in the name of Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski that the Rabbanei Ashkenaz were matir formal handshaking. Likewise, this was the position of Rav Shimon Schwab.

In three responsa, Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote that the view that permits such handshakes should not be relied on since there is a concern that the handshake will be affectionate.86 Rav Menashe Klein also adopts a stringent approach out of concern that although a handshake may be begin as a cold formality, it can evolve into an affectionate expression.87 The Chazon Ish considered such physical contact to be one of the crimes for which a person should give up his life rather than transgress.88

Steipler Gaon was of the opinion that even if the only recourse is to embarrass the person extending his/her hand, there is no justification for a man and woman to shake hands.

Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky very cautiously suggested that a man might be able to be lenient to shake an outstretched hand if failure to do so will cause a social disgrace

Rav Moshe Sternbuch proposed that perhaps the Chazon Ish was so strict over the issue of handshaking because he was referring to a warm and affectionate handshake as opposed to a cold formality.99 Rav Sternbuch wrote that in the event that failure to accept a handshake would generate an interpersonal crisis, one should seek rabbinical guidance.100

Rav Yitzchak Hutner’s guidance was to accept a woman’s outstretched hand “like a hot potato” in order to avoid embarrassing her.102 Even though Rav Moshe Feinstein published three responsa that would forbid handshakes in all cases, orally he instructed people differently. Many rabbanim have reported that Rav Feinstein instructed people that under extenuating circumstances, they could be lenient.

It is clear from the above that the local circumstances in which interactions between males and females take place play an important role in determining the halachic conclusions. The location, the degree of sensitivity of the participants (are they used to mixed events or not), and the nature of the event (is it one of levity or not) are all-important variables. Thus, the K’sav Sofer writes that we are not strict to maintain strict separation of the genders at a wedding ceremony because it is a controlled, serious situation, and not one of levity.1

Rav Feinstein made it clear that ideally, boys and girls should be separated at an early age, but not at the expense of closing down the school or of having to send the girls to a public school.

Avira, a good question. I would think anyone who learns would encounter numerous discussions in the Gemorah where multiple opinions and schools are respected and analyzed. Maybe Beis Hillel gives you a way forward by first explaining the opposite shitah.

Furthermore, it is a halakha that you often need to follow other minhagim, at least chumros, when visiting/davening with other groups. This requires knowing them to certain extent.

A practical question is how and when to introduce kids to other minhagim. Maybe the best would be for the kids to see their parents being respectful when interacting with others. Highlight to them what you learned from Chasidishe/Litvishe/Sepahrdishe/Modernishe friend or Rav or sefer …

RebE > Rav Moshe ztz’l stopped shaking by davening based on a story I heard. A nazi german soldier pointed a gun on him

RebE, who is Rav Moshe in this story? If this is Rav Feinstein, I do not believe he encountered Nazi soldiers. He probably encountered some Anarchists or Red or White Army in Ukraine.

> Does anyone have a different Torah or Shulchan Aruch??

I do. This is surely depends on a person, on environment, and, consequently, on a generation. I quoted before R Ouerbach reacting to a student’s comment that there is tahanun today by whispering to the gabbai “skip the tachanun”, while exactly same scene a generation before caused for mocking the student’s inappropriate remarks.

Maybe in a generation where people were treated harshly, a little petch was felt one way, and in a generation where people travel in their own cars, you might damage that person’s self-esteem …

Gemora discusses “luxury” Persian bathrooms – I don’t think any of you would go into one today

Avira > in sefardi communities, levels of religious observance among those who refer to themselves as orthodox vary quite a lot.

Sephardim did not experience Haskala and Cantonists the way (esp Eastern) Europeans did. Haskala divided us into modern/conservatives and Czar’s requirement for kahal to provide conscripts divided kahal from the poor in the community. R Berel Wein traced animosity of some Israeli parties to religious communities to the latter. Sephardim are more prone to keep the community together regardless of observance levels. Thus, variability. Ashkenazim also have variability, but each variation exists within their own community that often does not consider other communities worthy of mention, thus an illusion of homogeneity.

re: medical workers

it seems that 94% of doctors (AMA June 2021) are vaccinated, 50% of remaining plan to.

a less clear Aug 2021 survey of 5000 nurses:
88% of nurses are “vaccinated or planning to” – I presume before the firing deadline.
59% of nurses are in favor of mandates, another 12% – only for those who face the public, 29% against

There seems also to be a difference of opinion what R Chisda means by “shok” in Berachot 24:
Hazon Ish thinks it is a lower part of the leg, Mishna Berurah and Moshe Feinstein – upper.
Hazon Ish reasoning – nobody in their wildest dreams (pardon the pun) would walk with revealed upper leg, so R Chisda obviously means “lower”. This is, obviously, cultural, and R Feinstein had different environment starting w/ 1960s … Not sure about Radin.

Do we know what was typical hem line in 3rd century Bavel? That would resolve the shok machlokes.

PS economists claim that the length of the hemline is inversely proportion to GDP growth rate ..

> Many epidemiologists believe the vaccine is weakening the immune system

could you name these epidemiologists so that we can track their argument?

Are we discussing the midrash about people travelling on a boat and one of them drilling a hole?

There is also I think a gemora about Shmuel (?) refusing to go on a boat with inappropriate people, so not to get in danger with the reshaim.

let’s try a modern version: In reality, the sun is much larger than the moon. Also has original light, while the Moon is just the reflection. Hashem had rachmannut on the moon, and may made them appear of similar sizes. The Moon was not happy with that, did not appreciate the hesed and still complained.

Also, shows a difficulty of judging a case where you are involved. The Moon maybe had a point, but how do you express the point where you you may benefit from the solution? If the moon would would have studied mussar, it would understood that it will be punished and not rewarded. It should have offered to become smaller itself, it could have ended up being bigger as a reward.

More and more people are saying that vaccine hesitancy is due to the American unique Spirit of Independence. I’m not sure it is 100% true, or a way to excuse current government doesn’t know what to do. So this Independence quality creates both entrepreneurship that leads to vaccines on one side and to conspiracy theories on the other. I wonder whether it is even more true for the Jews who are called azim for a reason in beitza 25. Hashem supposedly give us Torah to direct azut in the right direction. It means if someone is is not directing azut in the right direction, he’s not understanding the Torah correctly. QED

RW, why you repeating the same wild ideas without ever responding to what you are told here? A simple question – do you also have problems with J&J? Novavax? AZ? Sputnik? Sinopharm? None of these multiple, mostly independently developed, vaccine satisfy you?

DY > The evidence shows that previous Covid infection offers more protection than vaccination

This may be true, but not fully established yet. “Infection” may involve a little or a lot of exposure. Vaccines also do not produce same results – some people get more protected, some less, but the response to the vaccine seem to be more regular – after all, everyone gets the same carefully measured amount of exposure.

It may be that Feds are too conservative in not trying to guess better rules and use instead “lo plug” approach instead of measuring antibodies and giving personal guidelines to people. It may be that virus specialists are trying to make public policy without having training. I sae recently that CDC Dr Walensky mentions a need for social scientists to get involved. This is a little late and a little slow …

Avira,
hajj – Muslims arguably is one major monotheistic religion, and you always look at Israeli problems from a religious prospective, now turns out you are affected by secular trends of seeing Muslims as enemies. Seems like you are erring on a side of hating in multiple dimensions. And hajj would be different from Taliban, lots of non-Taliban muslims go on hajj, according to my limited knowledge.

Re: Rav Ovadia – I don’t think this is about individual psak. I think the objection is to the overall trend of seeking external “inspiration”. And as derech eretz kodma l’Torah, a multitude of reported transgressions and misbehaviors makes this activity suspicious. Now, I happened to meet one of the first, if not the first, people who was able to visit Uman at the end of USSR, and he was an erliche Chasidishe Rebbe, so there should not be an objection to visiting Uman. Maybe you can advise them to visit at some other times except R’H?

Re:Ukraine. I understand that Ukrainians, as well as other Eastern-European countries are primarily focused on negating Russian influence, so they venerate any kind of local heros (although Chmelnitski was pro-Russian, so I am not sure here). We just need to make sure we are not getting in the same trap as between WW1 and WW2 when Jewish nationalists joined Nazis and Soviets in pressing these countries for their treatment of minorities. Whatever their sins were/area, they paled in comparison to those vandals. Same now, Ukraine has a Jewish president and is half-occupied by Russia, and we should worry about their 17th century sins … Same as fighting Poland regarding expiration of their restitution law while there is no restitution law in Russia and Belorussia as far as I know. Wouldn’t we want to have Volozhin Yeshiva back?

How is wearing red strings goes with the fashion of wearing black only and traditional halakha that red is not appropriate for women?

a little more details on the paper provaxx refers:
for 18-49 and 50-64 groups, risk of hospitalization decreases by 10-15 both in april-june and june-july time intervals, and death rates by 16x (with 18-49 in april-june being 30x)

for 65+, hospitalization decrease in april-june is 13 and in june-july 8, death decrease 16 and 10.

So, there is substantial decrease for 65+ and in one measure for 18-49 due to a combination of delta and time. It is possible that part of the decrease is due to an increasing number of previously infected among remaining unvaxed and more active people moving from unvaxed into vaxed column.

we do know some things now. So, look at early predictions and how they compare with later knowledge to estimate magnitude of errors and biases. For example, we had phase 3 results for vaccines and later much bigger observational studies. So, you can compare phase 3 results with observations under same conditions (original Wuhan and right after vaccine) – those were pretty on target both in safety and efficiency. and then, there are changes in conditions – Delta and 6 months later.

RW> -are you being sarcastic? Because there are definitely cases when people have tried many options.

I am not sarcastic. I am sure there are people who tried them all. But if this were true in general, we would have many questions on each of these steps: where can I find a kosher gym, should I daven or run first, what is teshuva for offending people, how do I measure quality of my learning, etc.

GH > Bigger minyanim are better minyanim

It may be not just size, but also unity (a Sukkos theme): R Berel Wein says that if there are 100 Jews in a town, Hashem wants them to be in one shul. What they do? 10 shuls with 10 people. What do they end up with? 11 shuls with 9 people. I am adding – you can be the 100th and make a minyan at all of them. This is all pre-covid, of course,

Someone (an inside person) here said now: we have inside and outside people. for Sukkos, we all join together finally.

Goldilocks > Very few people today would be capable of living like that.

I understand. We do indeed conclude that many tried to live like Rashbi (learn and not work) and failed. Still, we can’t take some inspiration from them. So, if there is anything you can emulate them and help humanity to fight the pandemic, please do – skip a vacation, a playdate, sit further away from an old person, wear a mask properly when others are putting it half-way ….

Beitzah 25 proves from a piece of raw meat from a hospitalized cow that we are not allowed to eat at the end of yom tov – that derech eretz is from the Torah and, in general, Hashem gave us Torah so that oterwise, Jews with their azut will not give space to other nations to live.

A fitting food for thought for Simchat Torah and a l’chaim for an increasing derech eretz on this site.