smerel

>>> But in Eretz Yisroel more Jews have been killed in the last 75 years than in any time in history since the Churban Bayis Sheini.

That doesn’t seem true. Of course when Eretz Yisroel was desolate and almost bereft of Jewish inhabitants very few Jews were being killed there. Which was the situation for the majority of the time after Churban Bayis Sheini. But when there was a significant Jewish population there was plenty of persecution. For example

More Jews died in Churban Beitar than in the entirety of the existence of the State of Israel. That was more than 50 years after Churban Bayis Sheini

Rav Sheria Gaon and Rav Hai Gaon say that the persecutions in Eretz Yisrael at the time of the compiling of the Yerushlami, were so intense that the halachic discussions ended abruptly and did not reach their complete conclusion. Therefore we pasken like the Bavli over the Yerushalmi

etc.

>>>Rabbi MP Lorincz quoted that from him, as I recall. That’s the same Rabbi Lorincz who misreported to the Brisker Rav

Oh, of course. When Rabbi Lorincz is being quoted to you about what the Briker Rav told him it must be true.(I read what he wrote about his encounters with the Brisker Rav in his autobiography and don’t recall any such quote) When he himself is talking to the Brisker Rav himself he misrepresented the truth…

Many years ago I read an article in an atheistic science magazine analyzing how was it possible that the 39 scud missiles shot by Iraq at Israel during the gulf war caused so little damage. It was a real scientific analysis contrasting general times scud missiles were shot at similar distances to places with similar population density and similar defense systems and the intrinsic power of a scud missile to cause damage. As a science magazine they acknowledged that the results should have been very different based on the factors involved . As an atheistic magazine they attributed it in part to random good luck. Even though such publication don’t usually believe in random good luck. That article belongs in The Empty Wagon but ch”v to consider it Torah Haskafa

>>>Itchie Meir levin was not a “rav.” He was an askan…..Reb Yaakov never said such a thing. It’s laughable that a gadol would change because of a simple observation, not that that was ever the discussion to begin with.

Rav Yaakov wasn’t bigger than Shmaya and Avtalyon and what does the Mishna in Edoyus say about them changing their mind because of what they herd from two lowly (on the social ladder)people?

But I’ll let you explain it. Why indeed when Yidden re killed is it attributed to Hashem and when they are saved is it attributed to the Sotton?

In general Rav Yaakov was no follower of the Satmar Shito on Zionism. To put it mildly.

>>>The Satmar Rav ZY”A went further in pointing out that although the Zionist victories in their wars were conventional military victories, which is simple fact, Hashem did give the Satan permission to fool many into believing the Zionist lies and propaganda about those victories being miracle

This is about as contradictory of a belief as you can get. If the victories were really such conventional military victories then they would be regarded as such even outside of both Satmar and the militantly atheistic anti religious groups who claim they were. How did the Satan have the ability to fool anyone because of them?

>>>Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own

First there is almost no one alive today who can be accused of having “caused the Arab threat” even by the logic of the anti-Zionist literature and propaganda.

Second the halacha is that we are mechalalel shabbos even for someone who is sakana because of an attempted suicide effort. Can you have a greater it’s his own fault and he put himself in that situation as a result of an attempted avaira than that?

Third the Mishna and Gemora etc in Taanis that talks about gaysos makes no such distinctions about why the enemy soldiers are coming to the “other” cities and why they may be at fault.

There is a lot more to say but I’ll suffice with saying that this type of sentiment is from the many, many things that led to my disillusionment with the extreme anti-zionist views I once had and led me to becoming an opponent of that group

>>>Smerel, rav aharon Kotler dealed, in fact, with mafia people to get money to save Jews in Europe.

Even assuming that story is true it has no comparison to what the Satmar Rebbe is being accused of RAK (allegedly) was looking to save people’s lives and turned to the mafia for help. No one was hurt in the process and the mafia was not helped in the process . What the Satmar Rebbe is being accused of is that there was a murderous deal being made with Nazis. When he heard about it he and his chasidim ran to the one making the deal and offered them money to get in on the deal too.

You can argue that the deal would have been made anyway so there was no issue with them buying their way in. That is no different than saying the knesset and the state of Israel will be there anyway. Let us do what we can to work with them for the sake of Torah

If Kastner really had everyone fooled that they would be taken by the trains to work camps and released at the end of the war (which was imminent) why did Satmar Chasidim get involved with such haschabrus l’resoyim and buy tickets for the Rebbe to join him and all the other Zionists on that train?

As an aside my wife’s great aunt who was neither a Zionist nor wealthy was on the Kastner train. How she managed to get on it remains a mystery but people like her and many others who I can think of who are on that were on the train certainly indicate that the train wasn’t overwhelmingly dominated by Zionists and the Kastner family

>>>When have you ever distinguished between Satmar and the modern day NK?

This question wasn’t directed at me but I’ll answer. While I’m strongly opposed to the more extreme anti-Zionist groups I definitely do distinguish between (1)Brisk (2)Satmar (3) The NK. With Brisk it’s an haskafa I don’t agree with but I have no issue with them having it (as long as they aren’t obsessed with the topic-but that would be true about opposition to any group, nothing to do with Zionism per ser) With Satmar I do have issue with some of what they say and do but it remains within the realm of an haskafa I disagree with. (3)The current NK are absolute rashoyim

The above said, one thing is indisputable, The NK is an outgrowth of opposition to Zionism. So are many of the secular vitriolically anti Torah and anti-Zionist secular Jewish American groups . If you go with the anti-Zionist ideology which ascribes quilt to all Zionists even for the actions of people who are long dead, then all anti-Zionists are responsible for those groups too. Particularly the NK.

I do not support sherut leumi but I’ve never heard an intelligent explanation of why it is so terrible other than have emunas chachomim , the gedloim said it is .wrong. WHY it is so wrong and so inherently different from say jury duty is something I do not understand. (this is assuming there is an actual pressing need for national service. Not the government insisting on it to show who is the boss,, which my have been the case in the early days of the state of Israel)

>>>RShach had actually a very negative view of Peres.
He even refused to meet him during the eighties and nineties.
As opposed to Rabin who did agree to meet.

I highly doubt Rav Schach ever met Yitzchok Rabin who was a lot more secular and had a less interaction with the frum world than Shimon Peres.

Rav Schach’s view of Shimon Peres in the 1990s does not detract from the hakaras hatov felt to him in the 1970s. Or any subsequent time either. If there were a secular politician today who strongly championed the cause of not drafting Yeshiva bochurim, few people would feel hakoras hatov to him, the kanoim would hate him anyway. Back then things were different. Even members of the American moetzes went to to Moshe Dayan to personally thank him for having fought that Yeshiva bochurim should not be drafted

>>>What Rav shachs understanding of the differences were is beyond my understanding; i have emunas chachamim that he saw a significant change which permitted joining the government.

It is inaccurate to ascribe the change exclusively to Rav Schach. (see below) It was the unanimous decision of the Moetzes to join Begin’s coalition in 1977. And due to change in status quo they were making they asked the American Moetzes for outside approval first. Which was quickly give to them. The reason for the change was simple. They realized that they were dealing with a different situation. It shouldn’t be hard to find a Jewish Observer online from that period that will explain it to you further.

According to Menachem Porush, Rav Schach was actually from the more resistant members of the Moetzes to joining Begin’s coalition. He insisted he would only do so if there was no chance of Shimon Peres making a coalition anyway. Because Shimon Peres had consistently opposed drfting Yeshiva Bochurim over the years and Rav Schach felt the Charieidi world owed him hakoras hatov

It’s also inaccurate to claim that the Charidie world did not take cabinet position until recently. Reb Itche Meri Levin was the minister of social welfare in 1948-1949.

>>>“Ubiq, do you think the chachamim would have fought the romans when they went to meet them? ”

This question wasn’t addressed to me but it seems very clearly that they would have . Chazal say that when Rav Yochonan Ben Zakai saw that those who were supposed to fighting in defense were cooking straw in boiling water for nourishment he said “could they possibly win over the soldiers of Titus ?” He therefore went to meet Vespasian. It is pretty clear that he was not opposed to their fighting per se . It was he realized it was a lost cause any way he tried to get the best deal possible.

On another note the resoyim from the Neturei Karta frequently misuse that Gemora as a justification for their being such malshinim, and mischaber and msichazek rotzchim of klal Yisroel. It is a nonsense comparison. Rav Yochonan Ben Zakai did not run a PR campaign for Titus and Vespasian, he did not enable or condone them in any way whatsoever, He basically met Vespasian under surrender terms and tried to get whatever he could for klal yisroel. The Neturey Karta for all the damage they do never ask for anything on behalf of Klal Yiroel. It’s all about their own money, kovod and achzrorius

>>>Manufacturing was able to support more jobs in tel Aviv and would enable more German jews to come. Kibbutzim were ideological goal but didn’t create enough productive jobs, limiting lives saved.

In order to create manufacturing jobs you need to have the raw materials, a saleable product and trading partners. None of them were existent in abundance in Palestine. The kibbitzim existed for the socialist purposes of providing employment to anyone who wanted to work. In that regard they were a success at that point in time. Coming from Russia and Poland with it’s mass Jewish unemployment rate their ideal of providing everyone with jobs even if there may be better economic models to choose from made sense, Many early Zionist ideals (which are widely criticized by anti-Zionists with zero effort to understand their point of view or motives ) make sense to people who are coming from their background and life experience

>>>I heard from a talmid that Rav Hutner didn’t visit the kosel because he agreed with the satmar rov on it being a problem of not being mechazek the reshoim.

None of his other Talmidim seem to have heard or believe that . They all daven by the kosel . It is inconceivable that someone like Rav Ahron Schechter would have made a public preannounced tefila asifah by the kosel had Rav Hutner opposed going there

Perhaps you are right that he didn’t “visit” the kosel as you put it. He went there to daven.

It’s nice to see you consider Rav Hutner to be deah. Hie had a lot more of a personal connection to and learned a lot more from Rav Kook than the Satmar Rebbe

>>>Smerel, it’s the simple chain of events. They only assembled an army after haman was defeated and mordechai was made viceroy

Again you are not answering the question. You are assuming that had the gezora not been botel they would not have made an effort at self defense. To the extent that you believe it proves that you shouldn’t. Based on what? Of course the sequence of events was that way. Trying to fight is never first step. Particularly when the other side is a lot stronger than you and almost certainly going to win.

Chazal say the parsah of Yaakov and Esav in V’Yislach is to teach us that preparing for milchoma is also a way to deal with those who threaten us. Do you think Torah haskafa is otherwise? Based on what?

You should however teach some of your pacifist haskafa to some of your antizionist friends. As above their endless seeking out confrontation and fights is what caused my disillusionment with that movement and it’s beliefs . The Zionists for their part don’t act nearly as standoffish towards their enemies

>>but as you can see clearly from the megillah, organizing an army for defense was NOT the method the Jews took nor would it have worked.

You see the exact oppisite from the Megilah! They did organize an army! As the posuk says
נִקְהֲל֨וּ הַיְּהוּדִ֜ים בְּעָרֵיהֶ֗ם בְּכׇל־מְדִינוֹת֙ הַמֶּ֣לֶךְ אֲחַשְׁוֵר֔וֹשׁ לִשְׁלֹ֣חַ יָ֔ד
בִּמְבַקְשֵׁ֖י רָֽעָתָ֑ם It was not the first line of defense but they certainly did do so when they were able to. As Chazal say the parsha of Yaakov and Esav in V’Yislach is meant to be a lesson for doros that we use three methods tefilah, doron and milchoma when dealing with their threats.

>>>He had hakaras hatov for having a place to live relatively safely after the war. Nothing more.

That already makes a major difference between the Ponevitcher Rav and most anti-Zionists. He had hakras hatov. He certainly did not look for confrontation. The lack of it and the confrontational always looking for a fight behavior that I saw among my fellow anti-Zionists was probably the biggest cause for my disillusionment from that movement and it’s beliefs (the group I was part of did not believe in the sitra achra business and did not believe that Israel had success in it’s wars due to Kochey V’otzem Yodey like some of the other anti-Zionist groups now do)

Rav Yosef Elya Henkin was very into the Shalos Shevous. He held that frum people should not vote or be in the knesset. BUT he also held that the anti-Zionist kanoim are no less guilty of violating the Shalos Shevous than the Zionists themselves are. Their confrontational behavior with the Zionists is also a violation of the Shalos Shevous (I think he said it in the name of Rav Chaim Ozer) See the end of the second volume of Kisve Rav Yosef Elya Henkin and some of the letters he wrote to Torah journals in the 1950s for an elaboaration

>>>Smerel, that account by r. Lorencz is a mistake. The satmar rov didn’t say that nissim are from the soton, he said that there weren’t nissim in the 6 day war, and he was correct. The US military said it would take Israel around a week to do what it had to do.

I see. You know better than R Lorencz himself what the Brisker Rav told him. Where does the six day war and the Satmar Rebbe even come into this? The Brisker Rav was niftar seven years earlier. I don’t believe the US military said it would take Israel around a week to do what it had to do. There is not one newspaper around from that time that reports such a thing. Yaakov Shapiro claims I’ll find find it on CIA.gov. I tried that and could only find a an obvious fake website pretending to be the CIA making that claim

>>>Let’s remember 3rd grade parsha class. Devarim 13: כי יקום בקרבך נביא או חלם חלום ונתן אליך אות או מופת

I also remember learning about Pharoah and his refusal to see to the Yad Hashem. The approach of Pharoah is what I’m seeing being pushed here by you. I won’t elaborate so as not to start with the heretical arguments

>>>According to the Satmar Rav ztz’l miraclles cam originate from both sides. The eigel did not come from kedusha.

It’s one thing to say that the Soton has small time power in this world. Saying that he can control world events and major events affecting klal yisroel in a miraculous fashion sounds like Polytheism R’L. Which is universally considered to be kefira. See my other comment about that the Brisker Rav (whose antizionist credentials were impeccable) said it is ossur to say such a thing

>>>Smerel, I’m as anti zionist as they come, and i have never seen anyone put ben hecht on a pedestal or praise him.

On a personal level, no, they don’t praise Ben Hecht. On a theological level his book is considered the ultimate unquestionable truth. I grew up reading anti-Zionist propaganda and the book was frequently referred to. To this day the Natruna website of Yaakov Shapiro and his ilk (currently Torah Jews) sandwiches Perfidy between their haskafa seforim that are available for download. As in two links down from something written by Rav Elcohonan Wasserman. And one link above Yirmiyahu Cohen (a major theoretician of theirs) That is how much parity and value they give to it.

It goes without saying that although the people accused were alive at the time that Perfidy was written and their side of the story is easily available no hint of it, let alone a refutation, is ever given in anti-Zionist literature.

>>>In fact, the Zionists caused the Holocaust and also contributed to it, as the gedolim noted and, liHavdil, secular writers as well.

This comment focuses on the end of that sentence

One of the many, many reasons I became so disillusioned with the extreme anti-Zionist haskafa I once believed in was the hypocrisy I saw in it’s theoreticians and propagandists. One of their many hypocrisies was that they viewed anything coming the secular world as completely off limits. Yet when it came to Zionism that haskafa and belief of their was out the window.

A book like “Perfidy” written by a mechalal Shabbos b’farhesia and a Zionist to boot was treated with reverence almost as if it were a haskafa sefer written by a gadol hador who agreed with their haskafa. (For the most part they had no problem making fun of Gedoley Torah who didn’t agree with their haskafa) Had the author written on any other topic it would have been banned reading. Had he been making claims about anything they weren’t interested in believing it would have been dismissed out of hand because you can never trust such people. But since he wrote what they wanted to believe it was treated with total reverence and unquestioning belief.

>>>The problem with these discussions is everyone has their preconceived notions and cherry picks Pieces mamarei chazal to fit .

I have read a lot of anti-Zionist propaganda .Some opposition that I agree with. Some is a legitimate haskafa or political complaint even I personally do not agree with the conclusion. There is however one very important component that I have never seen in any of the anti-Zionist propaganda written over the past sixty years: Anyone even TRY to make an intelligent non emotional argument that Israel has the CURRENT option to give into the anti-Zionist demands without at the at least the very heavy risk of a Jewish bloodbath afterward.

>>>The ‘oh really’ was in reference to your immature conclusion behind the edit. If you knew the truth, you’d be embarrassed you said it.

Now you REALLY sound like a high school kid

shkoyach, your unsolicited opinion is warmly received.

It is true that covid was overplayed and a lot of “following the science” just meant follow my power hungry opinion but those who downplayed covid also cost many lives. Ridiculous as some of the measures ostensibly put in place to avoid Corona were, those who flouted rules and precautions did die at a lot higher rate than those who ignored them.

Source?