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What some people fail to get is that no one goes off because they don’t believe, its because they don’t care. Even the guys who have all their arguments against being religious have some story that explains why they aren’t religious. No one throws out the way they were raised for intellectual reasons its all emotional. You get to the point where you believe in everything but don’t care enough to keep it.
I am religious now but went through my own battles. I really strengthened when I joined the army. the point I’m trying to make is that you got to get him into a better situation. Whether that means getting him to a yeshiva that doesn’t put crazy pressure on the students or getting him to get a job. The main point is productivity, without that its hard to care about anything.
Its very easy to try to stay in the same place I kept trying to make it work and wasted a lot of time. I personally am not quite sure where your son is in life; what you call a bad crowd can be just a group of disillusioned yeshiva guys who don’t do much wrong. On the other hand these guys can be doing serious stuff. You keep mentioning that you wish he would love his school. You have to get that idea out of your head. Stop living with what “should have been” and start dealing with the reality. Instead of dreaming that he will be the next gadol hador and start trying to get him to be a frum happy productive adult. The main thing is, get used to the idea that he may not be making it in this yeshiva or possibly in yeshiva in general and come with an alternative.
From reading through your posts it seems pretty clear that you are from israel (the word disk on key is one big clue as well as the use of the word hareidi and the fact that he is in shiur gimel but won’t continue to yeshiva gedola like the israeli system). I would asssume in a pretty insulated community like kiryat sefer or the like. The system in israel puts a huge amount of pressure on young kids; by the time they are 13 they are expected to sit and learn all day. Anyone who is not able or unwilling to put in the crazy hours and dedication is looked down upon.
I personally was in the exact situation described a few years back. I think I can offer advice based on personal experience. The first thing he needs is to be productive. Being unproductive just makes you depressed and just leaves you not caring about much least of all religion. Only once he feels good about himself will he be able to really think about what he wants in the future.
To that end, you need to get him to a next step , any step. Its very easy to stick with the status quo. I personally remained where I was and wasted a year and a half of my life. This can mean going to a more chilled yeshiva, going to work, or maybe working towards a bagrut. I can tell you personally that some of my happiest times in the past few years were times when I was working 2-3 jobs and barely had time to breathe.
Another great option you have is the army. Yes, it goes against your hashkafa (I’m assuming) but you have to look at it this way. Right now your son is hanging around with a bad crowd, the crowd in the army isn’t any worse. There is netzach yehuda which is filled with quality frum guys and even the regular army is very accommodating to frum people. The chareidi community has this false perception of the army perhaps because of the way it was back in the 50s and 60s. You have to realize it is not like that anymore (personal experience). The army offers full structure and really makes you into a better person. At this point in his life this may be just the thing for your son. I know many guys who were drifting and involved in the wrong things who completely turned their lives around after joining. (Just to be clear I’m referring to combat units as being a jobnik is even more depressing than sitting around at home and there are a lot of girl issues). One possible motivator would be to get in to a sayertet. If your son gets it in his head that he wants a sayeret. He will have something to strive for and that is extremely important in maintaining a healthy state of mind. He will have to start running and getting in shape to get ready for gibushim. Most importantly he will stay away from drugs (which are looking like a decent possibility at this point) so he won’t fail any army drug tests. This is something you have to sit down and discuss with your rav.
Sorry if all this came and sounding a little disjointed. This was written on the bus on my way home from base after a week in a crazy intense courseam I didn’t sleep properly in a while and I’m a little exhausted.
The parties over, we’re going from shemira back to base for an extremely tough month and a half of training, exercises, and courses. Thanks for that nice response, hopefully more people will think like you (although I am cynical enough to know that isn’t the case). This will probably be my last post in a while.
You seem like a nice girl and I feel bad putting you on the spot like this. Just a quick question to see if you put your money where your mouth is. If a guy was suggested for you that shared all your values, had good middos, yiras shamayim, kovea ittim (or learning full time if that’s your thing) pretty much everything matched except that he had been in the israeli army. Would you go out with him?
Yeah I knew what it was. I was just responding to the negative attitude and misconception mentioned earlier that participation in ??? is something not relevant to the frum community. I’ve seen fro other posts that The Chassidishe Gatesheader has lived in israel. I have begun to resent the snide attitude I get from many chareidim here where they like to conveniently forget the millions of arabs who would love to slaughter them if given the chance, and instead go and rant about the terrible army. Maybe if they would come on patrol in certain areas they might change their mindset a litle. I actually am in the army and if you know anyone there from ??”? who joined then I most probably know them too. We chayalim bodedim pretty much all know each other as we meet at different lone soldier events (friday night meals, thanksgiving dinner etc.) and generally hand out together.
People may want to be machmir on pesach but be careful not to go overboard. When I was growing up my mother used to go overboard when it came to pesach. The atmosphere in the house was tense and pesach was a bit of a traumatic experience. I haven’t been home for pesach for a few years. Even though my parents have relaxed a bit in the recent years, I am still hesitant to be at home for pesach.
They sent some guys from our base to help out with packing food packages for poor people for pesach. As we were sorting the different food donations I kept seeing products that I couldn’t believe were kosher for pesach. Things like wafers, cookies and even pasta. Of course most of it was kitniyot but its still pretty amazing how you can eat all these things on pesach.
Why? I am an israeli combat soldier and I read ywn coffee room occasionally. I am actually writing this while on shemira on a small hilltop community in ????. And I don’t just have a M16; I have an M4 with a trijicon sight. The truth is that for many american teenagers who are just not cutting it in yeshiva, ??? can be an incredible place of growth while helping keep jews safe. Americans can serve in almost all combat units with a commitment of a year 2 months without having to make aliya (???).
try the mini golf place (swingtime) down the 9. Or one of the bowling places -do Howell lanes if you don’t want to be seen. Take a boat onto lakewood lake or Lake Shenadoa.
don’t worry, you haven’t completely lost your innocence. If you had, you would know better than to use the expression “lost my purity” which has pretty clear connotations that I don’t believe you were referring to.
BTW anyone know what really happened in Kiryat Sefer with that story of a 13 year old girl marrying a 16 year old guy.
I have seen it numerous times, whenever passing through RBS Bet. I have even seen little girls peeking off their porch wearing burkas.
A good joke I just heard
On the signs that say tizaher Mokshim (danger mines) that are all over Israel, in arabic it says bruchim habaim
The thing that annoys me the most is the R. My hebrew is pretty good since I am in an Israeli Yeshiva but yet I can not pronounce many words properly.
I just finished Yam L’yam and as mentioned it overlaps part of shvil yisroel. Yes it is ok for females- my (female) cousin did it. Just make sure to have a good quality hiking backpack it makes a huge difference on your back. Other than that bring crocs/sandals. On the first day we did Nachal Kziv and we had to cross over the nachal every five minutes because the path zigzagged over it. The water was a little higher than usual and my shoes got wet. I ended up finishing up the day with wet shoes which made the next two days pretty painful.
30 miles a week that is pretty impressive. I am doing 3.8 miles 6 times a week but I’m not quite by 30 ( though I am doing some pretty intense hills I guess that counts for something).
Rule of thumb- when you see quotes around better think sarcasm.
mischiefmaker- coming from a bais yaakov highschool student. Now I am not saying I don’t have a lot to learn in life but how would you know anything about it. Now I am not blasting the entire bais yaakov movement. I am talking in particular about the very frum seminaries in Israel. It is the time of the year when I am starting to see the glazed look in the eyes as they are coming down with an acute case of seminaritis. This will last for about a year until real life hits them in the face. There is a reason many of my friends won’t date a girl straight out of seminary. I guess I was being a little cynical about that.
I don’t care about what highschool a girl goes to. It is what seminary they go to that really matters. It shows what kind of girl she really is. Yes there are many types of girls but to me it is different shades of black (which is all they wear, BTW, don’t they ever get hot.) everyone has their own personal preferences and I really don’t want that.
Yeah those are even “better”. Those “non typical” bais yaakov girls.
Sorry about attacking bais yaakov seminary girls. I just had a bad experience by the seder where the grandfather leading the seder kept trying to stimulate a discussion on the hagada but they couldn’t seem to come up with anything original (or much of anything) to say. These were seemingly smart girls who kept mentioning how much tanach they learn. It was only the non bais yaakov seminary girls who actually came up with smart things to say. For each their own but I don’t want one of those.
I don’t know the first thing about girls sizes. Nor do I care. Besides, as mentioned previously, it all depends on the build and how it all comes together. That being said, I am not into fat girls (forget politically correct- overweight). Therefore, I would not ask a fat girl out. If someone tried to set me up I would not go out with her if I saw her and wasn’t into the look. On the same token, I would not go out with a stupid girl or a JAP (same thing really) or any girl who attended a BJJ style seminary (I’m not into the whole regurgitating the teacher’s words thing). Some people like all those mentioned above. I have a friend who likes fat girls. All the future long time learners need word regurgitators to support them. That football player/yeshiva bachur wants a trophy JAP wife. But don’t get all in my face about not wanting what I don’t want. And for all those fat girls out there, Unless you have a thyroid issue or something similar, do something. Start running, exercising. That doesn’t include the “powerwalking” which probably amounts to a 1/10 of the exercise of running. Run 3 miles a day for a couple of months and maybe eat a little better and you might start to look more attractive to the majority of men I know.
END OF RANT
learn how to handle your alcohol. If you can’t, drink low percent or grape juice.
I get the feeling the quality is equal to a B movie, maybe. But I guess a kosher outlet is better than no outlet.
I have a couple of friends who are specifically into overweight girls.
canine- check out the last The Last Castle. It’s a great movie and it only has one woman in it- an older secretary dressed completely modestly.
sorry it was after a full day of cleaning for pesach. I wasn;t myself
adorable you are a teenager stop trying to talk big.April 4, 2011 7:34 am at 7:34 am in reply to: single guy and single girl talkin about shidduchim #911513
Adorable- That’s the problem! That they might end up married. What is wrong with that. I kind of feel like your missing the point over here.
The only real way to study is to take practice tests. Just keep taking them and you will do well. The subject matter is not hard it is just the way the ask the questions and the time limit. (for the record, the SAT is not computerized) The essay is in order to see how good you can write a rough draft in 20(25?) minutes. Pay more attention to the reading and math because most schools don’t really care about the writing as long as you do ok.
If you are going to use yeshivish words at least use them right.
Light up a doobie.
If you don’t roll that way try going for a run. after 3 miles or so you should feel better.
don’t know where 37 seconds come from. It seems like a random arbitrary number
I run 3 miles every day (half uphill). I am working on getting my time down below 7 minutes a mile. I also follow a program for pushups and situps.
obsevanteen- “and, in MY book that’s absolutely considered stealing”
in your book it may be considered stealing. Fortunately, the rest of us have this book called the Torah (ever hear of it) which we consult to actually see if it is stealing. You can’t just use logic to decide something is assur.February 16, 2011 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm in reply to: Shabbos board games/activities for 9-10 year old boys #754359
Great game that I love (except that you have to figure out a way to keep score) is Malarky.
I was just trying to point out that just because it is a sefer doesn’t make it true. I chose a sefer that he would certainly disagree with (after just hearing a summary) to prove my point that he doesn’t necessarily agree with everything that is written in a sefer.
I noticed some posters assuming that just because it is a sefer it is true and “you can’t argue on a sefer” Anyone can print a sefer; just because it has a binding a nice cover doesn’t make it true. If you really think so read Aim Habonim Smaicha. It is very well researched and very backed up from the the torah, poskim etc. Yet I’m sure you would find a rationale to disagree with every word written in it.
If you need to know it for nursing it is not inappropriate. Most guys I know who are going to college are not sheltered and are not really learning things that are a shock to them. Bais Yaakov girls on the other hand…
Stick behind your brother but don’t make any comments about religion. One of the things my friends and I hate is when sisters make self righteous “seminary” comments. We are all going through our owns issues and trying to improve and we hear this stuff from random people all over. We don’t need it from our own sisters.
Give up there is no such a thing as law and order in Israel. There are some yeshivos where they are more on top and some where they are less but if he wants to do anything he will do it. I personally think it is a good thing; you have to give him an opportunity to get some of this stuff out of his system. Some guys won’t do anything wrong and other will go wild. It all depends on his personality and where he is holding. But if he needs to get this stuff out of his system and he doesn’t get the opportunity he will eventually do it when he is older and you want him to get married. I’ve seen this with people I know.
It depends what brand and how old your computer is. Most computers nowadays have a windows image stored on your hard drive that will reinstall windows after reformatting it. Reformatting will completely wipe your computer clean so make sure you have anything you want saved backed up. It will start again like the first time it started and will ask you to make a user name and password. Be careful though because some computers will require you to have a restore disk to reinstall windows and the company will usually charge you $20 or so for it.
On a side note, never play around with system config. I by mistake unchecked the wrong program last week and my computer wouldn’t start. I had to completely reformat the hard drive which is why I know I about this. (thank god my friend was able to back up my stuff using linux beforehand)January 21, 2011 11:44 am at 11:44 am in reply to: tznius to wear skirts that just hit the knee or are above the knee? #730988
The end of the joke goes like this
The girl reaches into her bag and pulls out another apple and hands it to the guy, “Here take this apple because when adam ate the apple he found out that he needs to work for a living.”
funny thing, my cousin in seminary only heard the first part.
You are wrong. If it is well written and it has substance I enjoy reading a long comment. Maybe if your reading skills are not 100% up to par you don’t want to read a long comment.
why wouldn’t you wear blue ones. Why would you have a problem with wearing a pair of pants just because they are blue. The whole black and white mentality has gone way too far.
regarding chshash kiddushin, Last year two of my friends were in a restaurant and someone they knew came over and asked them to be eidim on his kiddushin and then he went over to a girl he knew and said Harie at.. and gave a ring. She accepted. I’m not sure why the guy did it he may have been high on something. My friends had to go in to bais din to testify. I heard it was invalidated in the end but my friends wouldn’t tell what happened; they were sworn to secrecy.
I agree that the engagement doesn’t change the status of the relationship (halachicly) it’s just a commitment. The point I was trying to make is that there has to be a physical attraction and an emotional attachment before that commitment is made ( and definitely before marriage- the ultimate commitment). Your flippant attitude here and on other posts, calling marriage nothing more than best friends, for example, makes me wonder about how much you really understand about marriage.
Assuming you really are dating you better learn fast or you will get the shock of your life when you get engaged.
I guess this comes back to the original misconception that a husband and wife are nothing more than best friends. (did you speak to your parents yet, bjjkid) The proposal is about starting to build the connection between the guy and girl. It is about actually verbalizing (hopefully) to the girl his feeling for her and that he wants to spend the rest of his life together. This is the first step in building emotional closeness between them. Having a shadchan arrange it doesn’t accomplish much and is a copout from having to experience an emotional moment together. (Granted, all the crazy propsals don’t accomplish this either)
As I said you really should ask your parents. This is the kind of thing that really can’t be posted on the cr. And I don’t particularly feel like educating you on the facts of life. Just one thing to leave you with (mods, cut me off if you don’t think this belongs) there is a physical aspect to the relationship as well.
bjjkid you’re really on a roll today. I guess if you don’t mind being bored out of your mind it is ok.
Women are the only people who believe in platonic relationships. If a man like a woman he will want to get with her; there is no in between.
bjjkid, yes you probably are. Marriage is more than just being best friends. For more information speak to your parents or mentor.
justsmile613 if by bike you mean motorcycle then I’m with you on that.
and here I was thinking this topic had to do with The Apprentice