oomis

A baseball set (you did say “Bat” mitzvah, didn’t you?)

To be serious, though, I think a personal leather bound Tehillim with her name engraved on the cover, is a nice gift, as is some type of not too ornate jewelry (bracelet, pendantm earrings). Mishnah Berurah – IMO, no.

You need to know the kid, though. Maybe her bank account could use some help, if you are a clsoe relative. Or, barring all of these, a nice gift certificate to either a store she frequents, or to a Judaica store.

There are many many normal FRUM YESHIVISH WORKING boys who have the RIGHT Hashkafos. These people are just as good as learning boys.

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IMHO, I believe in many respects they are even better – because they are doing both. They learn every day, and they bring home a parnassah, as well. They are machshiv Torah and machshiv their achrayus to their families at the same time.

but modern yeshivish is EITHER:THE RESULT OF A YESHIVISH KID AT RISK WHO CALMED DOWN AND DECIDED TO REMAIN FRUM JUST NOT EXACTLY LIKE HIS/HER PARENTS OR:THEY WERE RAISED MODERN ORTHODOX AND ARE TOTALLY CONTENT AND UNREBELLIOUS.”

Please don’t type all in caps, it is the equivalent of shouting.

Modern Yeshivish is a person who is machshiv learning, but also sees and learns about the world around him. He is probably educated, going for a degree in an area in which he expects to make his parnassah, and is dedicated to a Torah life, while at the same time involved in the secular world as well. I believe many of our Meforshim could be thus classified, including Rashi and Rambam, and many Gedolim today are learned in both Torah AND Madah. There is nothing whatsoever OTD about them, they just have a life outside of the Yeshivah, too.

Is it better for a girl to be seen “virtually naked” by a man or should she rather opt for the pat down as gross as it is?

Is it allowed for frum women to go through the scanner?

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Who says it will necessarily be a man doing the scanning? Maybe they have one for men and one for women. But in any case, women go to male doctors all the time (not my preference, but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do), so if they can get into a mindset as this being for their health, just like a visit to the doctor, perhaps that will make the scanning requirement easier to accept.

I unfortunately know several boys and girls who went OTD and every one of them was from a Yeshivishe family. I am sure many people know MO families who have kids who went OTD. The bottom line is kids go OTD, and instead of playing the blame game, we need to identify and understand the reasons why this happened in each case. There is plenty of blame to go around.

My friend’s brother had a rebbie who smacked him. He might even have deserved it, but that was not the way to handle him. A girl I know was very frum and had a serious problem that she took to her yeshivah principal, who promptly called her a liar. She is now totally OTD and probably will not be back. One kid “frummed out” in E”Y (MO family), and he flipped in and flipped out, after putting his parents through a terrible nisayon. There are a gazillion reasons why people become frei. The one thing I see consistently, is they react to hypocrisy and judgmentalism in a very negative way. Also, if you want to hold onto a handful of grains of sand (or kids), relax your grip. The tighter you pull, the faster they run out on you.

The people who don’t think this is rude, probably also text like mad on their cell phones while someone is in the middle of talking to them at that moment.

Frei people do not have evil natures. ALL people have evil natures (see Breishis where it tells you that the nature of a man is “ra m’neurav.” It is up to us to overcome the evil side of our dual nature, which Hashem gave us for a reason, and choose the tov.

“However, from an economic point of view,it is beneficial for some Yungeleit who are advancing in age, with growing families, Ke”h, to start seeking part-time employment with the emphasis still being on Learning in the BHM”D.”

Given the uncertainties of these economically hard times, what makes you think any of those long-term kollel guys will be able to easily find and sustain a job of ANY kind, much less one that will support their families? They are prepared for NOTHING, they are uneducated, and even ditch-diggers and construction workers are out of work these days (no offense to either of those occupations; they do a necessary and honest day’s work). So why would anyone think they can one day decide to get a job and it will magically fall down from the sky at their feet? People who are educated in professions are having trouble finding work, kal v’chomer one who hasn’t worked a day in his adult life would probably not fare much better.

I think of my grandchildren and their chochmas, and it puts a smile back on my face every time.

Member

It is absolutelt untznius to go on a date when you know already you wont be marrying that person.”

No, I do not think it is “not untzniusdig;” you use the word inappropriately, IMO. It is geneivas daas, however, the same way it is gn”d to go into a store in which you have 1000% absolutely no intention of spending a penny, and take up the time of the storeowner to show you his stock, just “to take a look,” unless you tell him that when you first go in.

You cannot be absolutely certain of anything in shidduchim, unless you already know the person being redt to you, and know why it is not shayach, especially if there is a chance the other party might BE interested.

“If a person does things to attract attention be it how they dress, what they drive, the house they build its a lack of Tznius … “

So what you are saying is that all chassidim are untzniusdig. All yeshivish guys are untzniusdig. Anyone who calls attention to himself/herself is untzniusdig. Do I have that correct?

Think that’s a sticky situation? Hows this: You get invited to a mixed marriage”

I had to deal with that when my husband’s ONLY niece married a goy. We did not go. it took a long time before the breach was healed because we “disrespected” them (their words). But we could not compromiseon this.

I see no problem with inviting a non-Jew to a wedding, especially if they are co-workers and others in the office are invited. Our non-Jewish guests dressed very tzniusdikly, and really enjoyed watching the proceedings. In fact, at one simcha at which I was a guest, they were the only ones who gave tzedaka to the man was coming around collecting during the chuppah (a practice which offends me greatly, btw, and I as a baalas simcha would far prefer to give tzedaka to someone in a nice amount and have him NOT bother my guests and disrupt a wedding).

“Easy way out is to say, “right now, I’ve got something else pending and is very imminent, and don’t tie myself up. And thanks for keeping me in mind! Should this not pan out, I’ll be back in touch.”

BP Totty, that is precisely how we handed sucjh a situation recently, almost verbatim. A friend wanted to set my son up with a daughter of a close friend of hers. She thinks the girl is “gorgeous, brilliant, charming” etc, etc. She is a nice girl, but as it happens, my son knows her through various organizations at which he volunteers, so he has gotten to see her under more socially casual circumstances. Certainly enough to know that after several meetings, he is not interested in going out, though he says she is a very nice person.

The friend was pressing me, and it turns out that it is because the girl already likes my son. Both my son and we, did not want to unnecessarily hurt her feelings, so we told the “redter” that he is currently in the middle of something that is pending, and we are not sure where it is going yet, but we are so flattered that they thought enough of him to suggest the shidduch. I also added that I would not want to hold the girl back from her other suggested shidduchim, as I do not know if and when my son will be available in the near future, but should it become shayach at any time, I will check back with them, if she is still available herself.

Also, regarding your statement BPT about “If a date between two people that know each other does not work out, both sides should be adult enough to face each other the day after” – that is a problem that has been created by the process of a SHADCHAN doing all the date arranging.

If the kids were to be responsible for setting up the dates between themselves (as we used to), by the guy getting the girl’s number and actually (horrors!) calling her himself, and then if the decision is made not to go out again after the first few dates, and the shadchan would not be the one to handle it, MAYBE the kids would learn how to be real adults handling real, adult problems in a real, adult manner by talking toe ach other about it.

We are infantilizing our kids.

To be fair, Aries, I did answer the original person who made the comparison.

mmseeker, I make no secret of my attitude. I have great respect for learning. I have even greater respect for men who make it their business to learn every day AND still support their families. I have zero respect for parasites who use the pretense of learning as a way of avoidance of adult responsibility, while placing their achrayus on their already over-burdened parents’ or wives’ plaitzas. And you and I both know there are many such bochurim in kollel. You are the one who made the comment about kollel versus tv. I merely responded with an opposing view.

As to the question of guys not working being equal to watching tv – I think it is far worse. When one watches tv, one is potentially (depending on what is being watched) damaging only himself. But, when he deliberately does not support his family, he is hurting his wife (who is pressured by the Kollel society to shoulder the family financial burdens by working instead of taking care of the responsibilities Hashem assigned to her), his children (who see little of him during most of the week), his parents (if they are providing support, especially at a time when they should possibly be retiring if they would so choose), and all the rest of us, who are asked to pay taxes from which they receive section 8, etc. because they are not making any money to suppport their families.

I have no quarrel with a poor yid who tries to make a living but it is insufficient and he needs some financial help. But I have seen married guys who sat in kollel for YEARS, while others stepped up to what should have been their plate, and I think it is wrong. Im ein kemach ein Torah. And what is worse, the girls are being brainswashed and made to feel they are not good Bnos Yisroel if they want a boy who is making a living AND learning.

Agree or disagree with me, as you see fit. The system is not working, and we are breeding a generation of men who will not be able to make a good enough parnassah that will enable them to support their own kids when THEY want to sit and learn after they get married.

“Oomis, boys and girls being friends with each other is an issur d’oraysa”

I must have not read that thread. What was the exact quote from the Torah?

Helpful, some of the areas of arayos in question are not things upon which all are in agreement, i.e. women wearing socks or no sox, where the shok begins, if it is ok to wear cap sleeves with a long sleeve shirt underneath, etc. Some of us have felt very strongly one way or the other, and the responders have been very hyper.

The scanner is a virtual strip search, but as long as the scanners are nowhere near the people who are being scanned (meaning that the people looking at them are ONLY looking at the screen, but cannot see the actual person nearby), then I think it is preferable to being thoroughly groped by a stranger. That could actually traumatize our young women going to Seminary. As unpleasant as this might be, it is a necessary evil for our protection, and sakanas nefashos comes first.

Wolf, am I the only one here who thinks that when you write disparagingly about yourself, that you are simply messing with us with a touch of wry wit?

Isaac Mizrahi.

SJS is right. When you utilize the social programs that are available, you need to ensure that liberal politicos will keep those programs in place for you, and financially solvent at that.

mdd, the problem often is that the posters who are being MOST judgmental are NOT judging according to the Torah, but according to standards set by the particular rov whom they follow. One should follow whatever rov one chooses; Pirkei Avos teaches us to make someone our rov. But we should try to avoid deriding others who follow the p’sak of a different rov from our own. On this site, too many people have not yet learned that, and continuously criticize other people who have different hashkofos from their own. Note I said “different,” not better or worse. (Still, I can almost bet there are those thinking to themselves right now, “Yeah, but my hashkafa IS better than theirs!”)

While it is not always the best thing to be meikeil in certain things, neither is it a maileh to be machmir all the time. And if one is machmir on himself – fine. But he should not feel superior because he does, or make fun of someone else who does not.

It is very easy for a man to be tzanua, for example, if one never speaks to women, never goes to public places where they might congregate, and never works with them. The TRUE ish tzanua, however, is the one who maintains those high standards when living a normal life that includes the necessity for doing all those things at some time or another. It’s kind of like the nazir versus the frum yid who drinks wine, but does not get drunk, go after women, or excessively concern humself with his appearance, except to be neat and well-groomed.

I always thought Frank Purdue was a gilgul of Ed Koch “

Nah, but do you notice you never saw them both in the same room at the same time??????

Shawn Hannety – I respectfully disagree with you. If you cannot sit in a room where a rov is giving a shiur, without yawning, sleeping, or reading another sefer – leave the room. To do any of those things in his presence is extraordinarily chutzpahdig. Don’t blame a rov for boring you. Perhaps you should simply not stay for his lecture. I have listened to rabbonim speak who were not only boring, but not my cup of tea for other reasons. I would NEVER talk or read a sefer while they were speaking. My parents brought me up to have better manners than that.

As to being judgmental – we are ALL judgmental every single day. We have to be. Discerning, might be a better word, as judgmental seems to have a negative connotation. The main idea is not to be so sure we are the ONLY ones who have a clue, that we discount anyone else’s view. The only view that I as a frum Yid would discount, is one which tells me it’s ok to be mechallel Shabbos, eat treif, not go to the mikveh, not have my sons gemalehd, and so on. Otherwise, all observance that conforms to basic Judaism and its guidelines, is good. I may choose to observe something more strictly than you or less strictly, but if I am meeting the minimum standards, then you should refrain from comment, even if you want to be more machmir on yourself. Only Hashem gets to judge us after 120 years.

Not everyone’s rov agrees with another. Not everyone’s rov believes that a father touching, hugging, or kissing his son or daughter out of parental love, in an appropriate way, is assur. Those who do feel that way, should not touch their female immediate family members, and should refrain from commenting negatively about those who do not share their opinion.

Part of what is SO wrong and alienating within Klal Yisroel today, is that dark and unyielding attitude held by people who are practicing a brand of frumkeit that removes joy from the Torah. By putting one geder after another on halachos that were perfectly excellent when Hashem gave them to us, they in effect are saying the Torah needs to be “improved.” Well, improve away. I wish my father Z”L were still alive so I could kiss him again. And I know my brothers feel the same about our mother O”H.

“I was telling my 3 year old the Pesach story and he asked if Paroah was still alive. I said no and he said, “That’s too bad cuz he would be good friends with Haman”

Out of the mouths of babes.